➡ Dr. Steve discusses a report on the rise of Christian nationalism in America, particularly in Moscow, Idaho. He talks about how some people, including atheist Richard Dawkins, are starting to appreciate Christian culture, even if they don’t believe in the faith. Dr. Steve argues that Christianity is more than just a personal belief, it’s a culture that shapes society. He warns against secularism, saying that a truly secular culture could be scary and empty.
➡ The text discusses Christian nationalism and the role of faith in politics. It highlights the views of John MacArthur, a conservative Christian leader, who believes that Christianity and politics should not mix. However, the text also points out that MacArthur’s actions during the COVID-19 pandemic contradict his views, as he stood up to government restrictions on religious gatherings. The text also discusses different views on the end times and how these beliefs can influence a person’s political views and actions.
➡ The text talks about the importance of Christian education, or “paideia,” in shaping culture and society. It argues that the Apostle Paul’s work in establishing churches was a form of political activism that eventually led to the fall of the Roman Empire. The text also discusses the history of Christianity in America, suggesting that the country was founded on Christian principles and that these principles are still present in our institutions and culture. It encourages Christians to continue educating their children in the Christian faith to maintain and grow this culture.
➡ This conversation is about Christian nationalism, where the speaker believes in integrating their Christian faith and love for their country. The speaker, Doug Wilson, has written over 100 books, including “Mere Christendom” and “Rules for Reformers”, which provide guidance on this topic. He also wrote a novel, “Ride Sally Ride”, which humorously explores identity politics in a future America. The speaker suggests that secularism is failing and that there are positive developments for conservatives globally.

Hey, gang, it’s me, Doctor Steve. And if you’ve been following this channel over the last few months, you may have seen our video on NBC’s special report on theocracy in America. It was a fascinating report, to say the least, and frankly, it appeared so somber and sober. And what I found so interesting about the report was that they, they didn’t just simply mock and lampoon and dismiss this idea of christian theocracy as if it were patently absurd.

While clearly revolted by the notion of theocracy in our nation, their report was extremely sober and serious. In fact, they devoted the entire last half hour of their show to a panel discussion on the prospects of christian nationalism actually taking over the country. The entire report was a rather stunning admission as far as these journalists and commentators were concerned at NBC, a conservative christian takeover the nation in the not so distant future is a very real possibility now.

At the center of that concern for NBC is the astonishing renewal of civilizational Christianity that’s happening in the bustling college town of Moscow, Idaho, nestled in the north panhandle about an hour and a half southeast of Spokane. And at the center of that renewal, humanly speaking, of course, is the pastor of Christchurch, Doug Wilson, who’s back with us today. His blog and links to all of his works can be found at the link below or by going to dougwills.

com dot Dougwilson, but without the on Doug wills. So, Doug, welcome back. Great to see you again. Yeah, great to be back with you. Thank you, Doug. Oh, I’ve been really excited to talk with you today, especially in light of what just happened. I think it was last week when the leader of the new atheist movement, Richard Dawkins, he came out and he lamented over the death of christian culture in Britain, all the while celebrating the loss of christian faith.

And it just seemed to me that that was a fascinating contradiction that he appeared completely unaware of. But I was wondering if you could flesh that out for us. What Dawkins is missing there? Yeah, what Richard Dawkins is doing, demonstrating there is the wisdom of Cs Lewis yet again in his abolition of man, where Lewis said, we remove the organ and demand the function. We castrate and bid the geldings to be fruitful.

And so basically what Richard Dawkins said is, I’ve devoted my life to chainsawing the apple orchard, and I’m here to tell you how much I love apple pie. My mom used to make apple pie. My grandma used to make apple pie. I love and adore apple pie. And I hate the kind of pie that they’re making everywhere else in the world. And I’m one of the guys that chainsaw the orchard.

Yeah, basically, you can’t, you can’t remove the organ and demand the function because God is not mocked. A man reaps what he sows. What you put in the dirt is what’s going to come up, come back up out of the dirt. If you, if you sow secularism and unbelief, you’re going to reap secularism and unbelief. And to echo the words of the prophet, if you sow the wind, you’re going to reap the whirlwind.

And what’s happening is a number of secularists are starting to wake up to the fact of what a truly secular culture would look like. And it would, it’s, it’s starting to scare some people. And insightful christians have been pointing out the direction this is headed for some time. And even some non believers are starting to see that you can’t fight something with nothing. And Dawkins is particularly troubled by muslim encroachments in Europe.

And he said, quite strikingly, if I have to choose between Islam and Christianity, give me Christianity every time. Every time. Every time. And yeah, me too. I’ll join that as well. Yes, I’ll say amen to something Richard Dawkins said. I also love apple pie, but I know enough to know that we need to keep the orchard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my. Almost sounds like psalm one there. Yeah.

Beautiful. I think, I think I put it this way. He wants the culture without the cult. Yeah, yeah. You know, the cultists, the worship that gives birth to the culture. Henry van Til once said that culture is religion externalized. Yeah. And that’s very true. And what happens is when you hollow out the religion, you hollow out the culture, it becomes an empty, brittle shell. And a lot of people are starting to discover that God is not mocked.

Right, right, yeah. Discover, yeah. Discovered in a very unpleasant as only can be. It’s a very unpleasant way. What was interesting, we were talking about this before we went live here. It seems that Dawkins, ironically, at least, is somewhat in the ballpark when it comes to this question of christian nationalism. He seems right. He seems to at least have this real deep affection for christian civilization, as do christian nationalists.

Well, he thinks that there is such a thing as christian culture. Right, right. He can taste it. He can appreciate it. There are many Christians who believe that Christianity is simply the religion in their head or what, or what goes on within the four walls of the sanctuary. And it’s, it’s our passport to heaven and that’s it. And if you say, well, what about christian culture? They will say, well, that’s not really, that’s not truly christian.

That’s not, that’s not the real deal because it doesn’t get your soul into heaven. Yeah. It’s artificial. It’s artificial or external. And of course, christian nationalists acknowledge that there is such a thing as nominal Christianity. There is such a thing as cultural Christianity. That won’t save you. Richard Dawkins is exhibit a. Right. His, his appreciation for christian culture is not going to save his soul. You need Christ.

Right. You need Christ. And Dawkins doesn’t have that. So when Christians, there are christians who have a constricted view of what Christianity is. Right. And this, here’s the, here’s the central problem. A lot of evangelicals love to talk about gospel centeredness, okay? And they say, they emphasize jump up and down. It’s got to be gospel centered. Gospel centered. And I want to push back and say there’s a real sin of gospel centeredness because I want to know where’s the circumference? Center of what? Right, right.

Center of what? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If, if Jesus is the center of this little tiny postage stamp sized thing and he’s the center of your own private devotional experience and that’s all, that’s not the gospel of the New Testament. Jesus Christ is Lord of heaven and earth. He’s the center of everything. Yeah. Right. In other words, the circumference has to be, has to be pushed out to the utter frozen limit.

Jesus Christ is the center of all, right. He’s the Lord of all. And if he’s not the Lord of all, he’s not the Lord at all. We can’t turn Christ the Lord into a tiny household deity. That’s not what he is. Right, right. And so fascinating because that personal, sort of private, internal soteriological faith isn’t going to get you killed in the greco roman world. They could care.

They, they’d love for you to have a faith like that. Just keep going about. Yeah, exactly. Right. The early Christians were persecuted not because of who they worshiped. They were persecuted because of who they wouldn’t were worship. Yeah. Right. So the Romans could care less. They had a God shelf and they didn’t mind if Jesus went on the God shelf. Right, right. You can have a pantheon, all the gods, and we’ll put Jesus up there.

Sure. But you’ve, they demanded that the Christians also put Caesar in that place. Exactly. But the christian confession, Jesus is Lord was a confession that excluded Caesar being lord. Yeah. Kaiser curios. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Caesar is not lord. Jesus is lord in such a way as that. Caesar is not lord. Right. And this is actually what’s behind the famous exchange that Jesus has with them about the coin and the taxes should pay taxes to Caesar.

And Jesus asks for a coin, and they give him a quarter, and he says, whose picture is this? And they say, Washington’s. And Jesus says, well, therefore it’s lawful to send this quarter to Washington, because if he managed to get his picture on it, then you can give it to him. Right, right. But he says, render to Caesar that which is Caesar. Render to Washington that which has Washington’s picture on it.

Right. But. But he also says the other half. Render to God. Yeah. What has God’s image on it. Well, what’s that? Yeah, that’s. Wow. That’s me. Yeah. That’s what we’re looking at. That’s right. That’s my kids. Yeah. What bears the image of God. Yeah. Well, people do. And that means that Jesus, in that famous exchange, he really pulled their togas over their heads, because he is saying, give to Caesar certain limited, bounded things.

But you must not. You may not render your children or your household to Caesar. Why? Because you bear the image of God that must be rendered to God and God alone. And if as soon as you embrace that, once you say, I cannot. I cannot render myself or my wife or my children to Caesar. Well, welcome to christian nationalism. Right. Right. What I love about what you do, Doug, you’re not just so interested in sort of the secularized Christian who would obviously be repelled by christian nationalism, but you’re.

You know, you’re. Well, you’re not intimidated by anyone, but you’re. You’re not intimidated even to take on a little bit of the conservative christian leaders, and there’s plenty of them, for whatever reason. Maybe it’s just american privatized faith or something, but there’s a lot of conservative christian leaders out there. Well, I wouldn’t say a lot, but significant ones who are not on board. So I’m. If you don’t mind me dropping a name, because he has been a little vocal lately.

I’m thinking we could bleep it out afterwards, put some other Mister Rogers or something over. But I’m thinking, of course, that John MacArthur, many of our viewers know him and love him, but what he said recently is christian nationalism is a contradiction in terms. There’s no such thing as a christian government or nation. Our founding fathers weren’t true christians. And, you know, I don’t want to. I don’t.

I don’t want to. I don’t want to create a straw man. I just. He does seem to assert that trying to attempt to advance Christianity politically is misguided. Right, right. So I’m going to do a pull, maybe something of a unique stunt here. I’m going to. I’m going to critique John MacArthur by means of praising him. Okay. When. When the lockdown foolishness, the COVID foolishness hit California, John MacArthur was one of the few pastors who, in the.

In the. With the spotlight on him, stood up to statist tyranny and won that showdown. Okay. And, yeah. Hands down, even the courts and every. You won. Yeah, he won. And this is ironic, because John MacArthur’s comments on christian nationalism basically amounted to, look, look, friends, we lose down here. And. And then I look at John MacArthur and say, but you just won down here. You won. And it’s.

It’s that. I’m glad that. I’m glad that he has the courage of his convictions, but I believe that his theology, his. His bifurcated theology has limited and. And put bounds on his courage, but not the. Not his experience of courage, because he stood up to the man. That. But it. It sort of frustrates and gets in the way of people who want to imitate it and push it out to the end.

But I would. I would make this wager if. If you gave me 200 John MacArthur churches, you know, and there are a number of MacArthur churches around the country, John MacArthur himself, and grace, and then churches with John MacArthur disciples. Just give me 200 and shoot. Just give me 100 of them and let’s plop them down in North Korea. Okay. And with their theology, we lose down here.

We’re. We’re. This world’s not our home. We’re just passing through 100 MacArthur, like, churches in North Korea would cause that regime to topple within a year. Wow. Okay. Wow. In other words, you can’t keep salt from being salty. You can’t keep light from being light, even if the light has a doctrine or an eschatology that thinks that we’re, you know, we’re not all that bright. We’re not going to shine the light that much.

Well, I know. I think that they really. They really do. So I believe that what, a christian nationalist. I’m reformed and presbyterian. I believe that our tradition can make better sense out of the impact that we’re having than John MacArthur can make sense out of the impact that he’s having. Yeah, but he’s having an impact. He’s having a good. He’s having a good impact. And I praise and honor him for that impact.

And basically, I don’t. I don’t mind saying he’s one of the grandfathers of the evangelical movement in North America. And I wish there were more pastors who didn’t fold the way he didn’t fold. And. And the one critique I’d make is that he’s going to have trouble making sense of how we won down here. So if God makes. If God is gracious and gives us the great reformation and revival, what’s going.

How are the people going to make sense of it? So there’s a great line in that hideous strength, sorry. To quote Louis again, where ransom is talking about McPhee, the skeptical unbeliever that’s in the company at St. Anne’s. And Ransom says, McPhee, there’s no better man to have by your side in a losing fight. He said what he’s going to do if we win. I can’t imagine that is the best critique by compliment I think I’ve ever heard.

That is so good. You bring something up there that I think is interesting because it comes up on this channel a bit. And that is the role of eschatology, our doctrine of an expectation of end times and the like, and how it does play a significant role in the formation, in this case, of, like, a political or cultural theology. It’s interesting. It’s not determinative. I mean, you got, if I’m not mistaken, you’ve got the charismatic seven mountains advocates out there who tend to be very dispensational, pre millennial, but they’re still very much advocates for a vibrant sort of christian activism and nationalism.

But it does seem that if your view of the end times is radically pessimistic in its lead up, obviously, to the return of Christ, it’s hard to have a very. I think you said it. You put it very well. It’s hard to have a coherent, vibrant political theology in the midst of that storm. Or can you address that? Yeah. Yeah. So let me divide eschatologies into two different systems of categorizing them.

Okay? There’s the traditional metric of post millennial and premillennial and amillennial dispensational. Those are the traditional metrics of when someone says, what’s your eschatology? They’re probably asking that. Right? But I would want to. I think there’s a more useful metric for us to use, and I’m borrowing this from the late Gary north. He said that there were basically two eschatologies. He called them optimillennialism and pessimillennialism. Okay, now, there is a sense in which all christians who believe in heaven are optimistic, right? So every Christian who believes in heaven and forgiveness and so forth is optimistic in that sense.

But optimillennial and pessimillennial has to do with optimism and pessimism about the course of human history before the end. So after the end, we’re all optimists, but before the end, what are we? So post millennialists are optimillennialists by definition. They just have to be. They just have to be. But amillennialists and premillennialists have a choice, right? Dispensational pre mills are pessimillennial, because that’s the feature of the system.

Things go from bad to worse. The Antichrist takes over, the church is raptured out. Everything goes to hell in a handbasket. That’s. That’s pessimillennialism. But there are premillennialists. Charles Spurgeon was one of them, who was not a dispensationalist at all, and he believed that the great commission was going to be successfully fulfilled. The nations would come to Christ. He was an optimillennialist and pre mill. And then there are a number of amillennialists who don’t want to call themselves post mil, but they’ll say, I’m optimistic, am ill.

There’s room. There’s. There’s room in the eschatological train schedules, right? There’s like, if you’re looking at all the diagrams of how you think the book of revelation is going to go, you’ve got the train schedules, disagreements, which is where you get the names, post mil, pre mill. But I would prefer to zoom out and say, look, why don’t we just shake hands, be between us optimistic optimillennialists, and work for the kingdom, right? Okay.

And if there are premill, optimistic charismatics out there, God bless them, go to, you know, go to town. If there are people like spurgeon, go to town. Optimistic. There was one book I read when I was going through all this, sorting through all this, there was one book that really helped me in my journey into post millennialism, and I found out years after the fact that it was written by an all millennialist.

So basically, I don’t. My whole life’s been a lie. I don’t think my standard joke that I read somewhere when I was a kid is the millennium is 1000 years of peace that christians like to fight about. That’s right. That’s right. And I think we ought not to be doing that. We should just be working for the kingdom. Don’t use the name millennium. Just talk about the kingdom and labor in the kingdom and hold on to the truth of one.

Corinthians 1558. Your labor in the Lord is not in vain. The work that we do in the name of Christ in the here and now is not thrown away. It’s not in vain. God honors it. Amen. It’s interesting, I think, too, another way of approaching this is counter reading end times theology through the lens of a political theology that already seems to be embedded in the New Testament.

So I’m thinking of the greek term for church, ecclesia, which a lot of scholars would argue is actually a political term, that the center of the polis, as it were, Paul’s encouragement, the Ephesians, to raise their children in the paideia of the Lord. Paideia as an educational, greek educational projects that involve all kinds of cultural, political frames of reference. So, in other words, if the New Testament gives us a rather robust political theology, then it would seem to follow that there must be a comparably transformative eschatology attached to that.

It’s almost like you could kind of counter read and go in that direction as well. And what a lot of christians, the mistake a lot of christians make is they look at the first century, and they. And they think to themselves, well, when Paul arrived in Rome, we don’t see him out there circulating petitions to have the gladiatorial games banned. Right. He’s not doing that kind of political activism.

And so then they say, well, therefore, we shouldn’t be doing that. But that is to mistake the nature of crops, right? Right. When you. When you plow the field and you put the seed in the ground and you go out and look at it the next day, it doesn’t look like there’s any seed in there, right. It looks like you. Did we plant. Did we plant here already? I don’t know.

Right. You’re not going to see transformation until sometimes later. So it’s. It’s not right or fair to say the apostle Paul didn’t engage in political activism when he was. When he was doing the most potent thing conceivable. Right. By planting churches that acknowledge the sovereignty of God and the lordship of Jesus Christ. And now it took three centuries but that toppled the roman empire. Right. What Paul was doing was toppling the Roman Empire.

And he was doing it by traveling around the Roman Empire, being dragged out of cities and stoned where centuries down the road there would be cathedrals named after him. Right, right. Okay. So the apostle Paul had the long view, and we should take the long view also. We shouldn’t act like the gospel that Jesus just rose from the dead ten years ago and were just arriving in a pagan city.

I mean, obviously the, the apostles had bigger fish to fry. Right, right. You start, you start with the majors, right? But we’re 2000 years in, okay? And we’re 2000 years in, and there is quite a legacy of our christian heritage, and we have no business wadding it up and throwing it away. Right? We don’t have the right. We don’t have the right to do that. It’s, and it says, it just goes full circle with the whole Richard Dawkins thing.

So he’s planting the seeds and then these beautiful apple trees come out. What do you do with these wonderful fruits and apples? You make beautiful culture out of it. Yeah, exactly. What, you know, one of the things that you’re at the forefront of, obviously, Doug and I owe you a huge debt of gratitude for this. The way you changed my life for 20 years is classical education, raising the children, the paideia of the Lord you took very, very seriously early on.

And it’s just an amazing movement that is just, I mean, there must be times you just sit back and go, wow, just so grateful. I just, look what God’s done with this, this movement. Yeah, extraordinarily grateful because I’ve seen, I’ve been privileged to see in my own life the potency of the illustration I just used. You planted this little seed. I mean, when we started logos school in 1981, there were four teachers who did.

We paid them no salary. They just lived off of gifts, no salary. We had 19 students. The students were children of people who worked for christian ministries who didn’t themselves have a lot of money. We were crazy. What it boils down, we were just crazy hippies. But God is kind to crazy people frequently, and he was very, very kind to us. And now when we look around and see the, oh, if you take seriously the charge to bring your children up in the paideia of the Lord.

But that word paideia is not a common noun. Every language has common nouns and nouns for, you know, shoelace and chair. And, you know, and if someone, if you were talking to a friend and you said, what are you doing? And he said, I’m finished. He said, I’m finishing writing a three volume history of the shoelace. You’d feel his forehead and you say, friend, I think, why don’t you.

Why don’t you take. Ask a girl out? Why don’t you go do something? Because nobody writes a three volume history of the shoelace. Right? Right. But if he said, I’m finishing up a three volume history of democracy, you know, an elevated abstract, not an abstract noun, but proper noun in a way encompassing term, that’s a subject that is worthy of a three volume treatment. Right? Yeah. Well, I first thought of this illustration because on my shelf somewhere, I’ve got a three volume history of Paideia by a man named Werner Jaeger, because that was an all encompassing word that talked about the enculturation of the young child into the culture and ways and religion and mores of his people.

And so when Paul says, christian fathers, bring up your children in the paideia of the Lord, he is what he is requiring. There is an activity that is going to result in a christian culture. Right? Paideia presupposes a christian culture. Exactly. And even if there isn’t one on the ground yet, if you start exercising, educating your children in the paideia of the Lord, the end result is going to be a christian culture.

Right. That’s that counter read that I was kind of getting out there, right? It’s got this robust, these frames of reference for very robust social and cultural theology. Therefore, go make disciples of all nations. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it seems that these are things that seem like, stupefying and radical because we’ve been trained over the last, I’d say, mostly since after World War Two. But the seeds of our unbelief go back further than that.

But the United States for a long time successfully embodied a christian culture that was self consciously there. There was a supreme Court decision in 1892, exquisitely named Holy Trinity versus the United States. I love it. But it was a church in a battle with the government, and the church won. And Justice Brewer, the chief justice, they settled the case, the dispute under the case. But then he went on to say, while we’re here, while we’re on this topic, let me remind you that the United States is a christian nation.

And there was a thorough going treatment of the history of the United States as a christian nation. And it’s the sort of thing that Richard Dawkins would say, point to and say, yes, that’s what I’m talking about. And many christians would say, I don’t think that actually happens. But the Supreme Court said, no, this is. This is the case. The United States presupposes the truth of the christian faith when we compose our laws.

So consequently, abortion was illegal because we were a christian nation. Bergafell was unthinkable because we were a christian nation. And the thing that’s striking about this is I’m a boomer. I was born in 1953, and the day I was born was closer to that Supreme Court decision in 1892 than our conversation today is. Wow. Yeah. Our conversation today is farther away from my date of my birth than that Supreme Court decision was.

It was not that long ago. Right? It was not that long ago. We. We went off the cliff rapidly, and that means that that’s the astonishing thing. But there’s also a real sign of hope in that there are a lot of good bones, good structure. If this. If the United States were to be a remodel project, a lot of the beams and the timbers and a lot of the structure is still there.

And the only reason it’s in such disarray is the christians have believed the lies about how, oh, no, the founding fathers were deists, which they weren’t. Right. At the constitutional convention, 55 men were there, 50 of them were orthodox christians, 50 of the 55. And the two signal deists that we had, I put scare quotes around deists were Jefferson and Franklin, and both of them were very bad deists.

Right, right, exactly. Because deists don’t believe in providential intervention. Right, right. So Franklin and Jefferson weren’t orthodox christians, but they were not orthodox deists either. Either. Right, right. They were. They were very much shaped and formed by the christian consensus. And Jefferson had to hide how much of his unbelief he had because he was trying to get elected in America, because the country was just so overwhelmingly self evidently christian.

And. And this is why I think the. The message that we’re proclaiming Christ is Lord and Christ is Lord in America has such resonance. It resonates with us, because we’ve got memories in our institutions. We’ve got memories in our bones. We’ve got memories of Christ’s lordship in our american DNA. And as it happens, a few weeks ago, I was privileged to sit down with Tucker for an interview.

Oh, wonderful. I heard about that. Yeah. That’s. When is that coming out? Today. Just dropped. Okay. All right, then this interview is coming out after that. All right, great. It’s coming out today. But the topic is, again, christian nationalism. Yeah. And this is not, oh, my country, right or wrong, because christian nationalists are calling America away from her sins and turn to Christ. Christ offers full and free forgiveness.

So I’m a Christian and I love my nation. What are we going to do with that? All right. I’m a Christian and I believe that Christ is lord of all. Because I’m a Christian and I’m an American, because this is where God put me. This is. This is where I’m assigned. And I want to put the. I want to live an integrated life with those things together. Right.

Right. Doug, what are say. I mean, you’ve written so much on this. How many. How many books have you written now? What? I mean, people. People compliment me. I did a little over 20. Go ahead and shame me here. How many? I’m not exactly sure. It’s over 100. Oh, wow. You have hit. I was wondering if you hit 100. Oh, I could easily see that. What are some of the.

Excuse me. I tell people that I write to make the little voices in my head go away. Yeah. And they keep coming back. I see. It’s not working. I write for the same reason that dogs bark. Right? That’s right. There you go. What are. I mean, what are some resources that our listeners can access of yours? We have the link down below. They can click on that link.

It’ll take them to Doug Wilson. Doug Wilson without the o. N. But do you have some resources that you recommend to help them think about christian nationalism and christian education? All that good stuff? So the introduction to the whole thing that I wrote is mere christendom. Okay. That’s the. That’s the interview over you answering common objections. What about free speech? What about freedom of conscience? Things like that.

So that’s mere christendom. And then I wrote a book called rules for reformers, which is sort of a. An answer. It’s a riffing off of Saul Alinsky’s rules for radicals. Saul Alinsky was a bad actor, but he was a genius and a strategically. Yeah. Very strategic thinker. And the left has. Has run his playbook for a long time. One of the reasons why it’s, uh, they’ve been so successful.

And so I wrote rules for reformers, which is meant to be a counterpart. How, if you’re a Christian and you’re eager to get engaged in an intelligible and intelligent way, um, that book is, um, sort of a handbook for how to get involved, uh, rules for, uh, rules for reformers. And if. If I might, I wrote one novel that. Well, I wrote more than one, but I wrote this particular one called Ride Sally Ride and Ride, Sally Ride is a novel about the crack up of the United States.

And it’s, it’s sort of a comedic dystopia. Right? So it’s, the setup is there’s a young christian man in Colorado a few years in the future who winds up through a series of circumstances recycling his neighbor’s sex doll at the recycling plant. Just in an act of moral indignation. He just recycles this sex doll and he gets charged by a woke prosecutor with murder. Okay. So, because the owner of the doll identified her.

And so the whole, the whole thing is about identity politics. And it’s kind of interesting because I wrote that, I wrote it a few years ago and predicted the overturning of Roe in that. And there was, there are a number of things where people are saying, what’s going on here, Doug, you’re not a charismatic, are you? But it just works. Special revelation. Ride, Sally, ride. Ride, Sally, ride.

Rules for reformers and mere christendom. Three one. That’s, that’s how you’re going to start your Doug Wilson library, if you haven’t already. And you need to, and then you have a hundred more after that. Amazing stuff, Doug. Absolutely amazing stuff. And again, you know, I keep going back. I do. It’s, it’s, I don’t, I haven’t, I don’t even know how many times I’ve watched that NBC interview with you and just the whole segment.

But the more I watch it, the more, and I just, just get the tone of the way they presented it. They’re afraid. They really, they really like, this is, this has got legs. This is, this is happening. And I also, I think there’s also a sense they feel, they feel that secularism really is imploding. They don’t know how to put it in. Well, again, Richard Dawkins is saying it in his own, in its own strange way.

Correct. And this is, this, it’s kind of ironic, but some of these unbelievers have more faith in what God is doing than many christians do. It’s so true. It is. It’s so true. Half the time, the optimistic topics that I find are from, like, salon. com or slate. com. They’re just so panicked of all these amazing developments that are happening for conservatives all across the country and around the world.

It’s amazing stuff. Doug Wilson, thank you so much. It’s always an honor to have you. I can’t wait, can’t wait to check out the Tucker Carlson interview. That’s so cool. I was very grateful. So thank you for having me on. Thank you. Thank you so much. .

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