The New JFK Show #288 Rick Russo / The Mary Moorman Photo

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Summary

– Jim Fetzer, Larry Vera, myself, Gary King, and Rick Russo, who we’d like to introduce to the show. Rick had a keen interest in the medical technicians at Bethesda and did sensational work early on. What’s your take on pitzer? I believe he was murdered.
– Tom Wilson’s work in the Mormon photograph, discovering another slug, more evidence, and that came by mistake. For the headshot to have been fired from the storm train isn’t a very very sure thing. The size of the actual hole itself has been diminished probably by 50%.
– Tom Wilson discovered a slug in that arch in the limousine. The problem with Wilson’s analysis, for example, of the wound to the back of the head, was not knowing how to replicate it. Everything in this case needs to be corroborated.
– Jim Bellini: What people don’t realize is that that series of sewer openings from the one that we’re talking about is diagonally right across the infield of Dele Plaza. He says those were positions of concealment that are ideal positions for snipers. Bellini says the most likely trajectory would have been second floor of the Annex Building.
– Gordon Arnold, like Tom Wilson, is another one that takes the hit on the Internet, is lying and concocting the story for attention and money. But the only thing that we need to do is corroborate things to find the truth.
– Final image from Willis Five shows Black Dog Man in the exact same position Gordon Arnold put himself in. The work they did on all the films and photographs was beyond comprehension. Unfortunately, it took me 30 something years to realize that.

Transcript

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” says permission needed. Okay. Welcome everyone, to the new JFK show, number 288. We’ve got Jim Fetzer, Larry Vera, myself, Gary King, and Rick Russo, who we’d like to introduce to the show. And also we’d like rick, welcome to the show. And could you tell us a little bit about yourself and about the presentation you have for us tonight?

I can add a few words. Right. Rick had a keen interest in the medical technicians at Bethesda and did sensational work early on. So he has a long-standing history of involvement in a rather deep and searching way.

Rick, further. Well, first of all, before I begin, I want to thank Larry for taking the time to download and organize the photos that we’re going to have as part of this presentation tonight. And actually, Jim, I want to thank you. You don’t realize this, but 30 years ago last month, you had set up an introduction for me with Dr. Herbert Spiegel in New York in order to allow me to bring Dennis David there to be right.

That’s right. You’re absolutely right, Rick. Wow. I can’t believe how time yeah. Yeah. That was sensational because Denis David could remember every keystroke when he typed up about the bullet fragments that had been removed from the know. I had never seen anybody Hypnotized before, and Spiegel was probably the best in the business at what he did. And I guess there’s various scales, ranges of people who are susceptible to hypnosis. And on a scale one to ten, Dennis David was right up there almost a ten. And he went back in time at that point, we’re talking about 93. He went back in time 30 years in the first person. It’s like he’s actually there telling us what he’s seen. It was unbelievable. I’d never experienced anything like that before or since.

I think at the time you told me, Dr. Siegel said on a scale of one to ten, Dennis David was an eleven.

All right. That was theatrical, but I would stand by that. Yeah, I guess we could say he was not a ten, he was an eleven. He was a perfect candidate for hypnosis. And I mean, what an historic development that was.

Well, it was certainly helpful for him to try to recall certain things, especially the time he spent a few days after the autopsy night with Bill Pitzer and looking at those film materials and seeing what was on know. That was very important to get that know a lot of the other things that he remembered as what’s very briefly here, because we don’t want to go off on a tangent. What’s your take on Pitzer?

I believe he was murdered.

Okay, well, I mean, first of all, regardless of the investigation that the FBI did and getting into all the technicalities as far as there was no what do you call it when you see a bullet wound, the stippling around the wound and all that showing that he couldn’t have held the gun right to his head. But the body was found underneath the ladder, and above the ladder was a ceiling tile that had been moved. And then the death of Pitzer takes place exactly one day before Bobby Kennedy gives the deed, a gift of the autopsy pictures and X-rays to the now maybe you know that’s, but and then you get into the whole Colonel Dan Marvin scenario of the story, which I believe I met Dan Marvin. I went with one of the few first people to interview him before I even brought him to Nigel for the Men of Kill Kennedy back in 95. And he struck me as a very honest man. He had no reason to concoct any of the things that he said. So I believe Pitzer was murdered.

What about people okay. And I had this just last one. There was a researcher by the name of Eaglesham who first advanced the suicide and then did a 180 on that. Any comment on that?

That’s just a mystery to me. I thought he did a great job. I think in the third decade, doing articles showing how it had to have been a murder and analyzing the FBI investigation report and all the other elements pertaining to the death of Pitzer and coming up with a real solid conclusion and then over a period of time, he did a complete 180. And I have absolutely no idea why that happened, to be honest with you. Didn’t make sense to me.

All right, well, man, we got to bring this guy more often, Jim and Gary, because there’s a lot of stuff to cover here. What I was going to say and the fact there’s no doubt Pitzer was murdered. His hand was mangled, he was left-handed. And his left hand, Rick, as I recall, was you know, this was totally phony. They wanted to get whatever video he had since he had recorded, he’d actually filmed the entire autopsy. So he was murdered as a way know, get rid of a witness who was in a crucial position. And he and Dennis David were very close. So Dennis David was really quite distraught over his death. But I don’t have an iota of hesitation to say that Pitzer was murdered. He was assassinated because for political motives.

Well, perhaps somebody was concerned. He may have talked to friends. He may have been leaving sometime in the near future, the military. And if he had copies of the materials that Dennis David saw back in 63, then that was very dangerous to a lot of people who had already put forth what they did. So I know we’re digressing here, but if you want, I can start. What Larry is saying, Rick, is you’re a wealth of information about aspects of the assassination that are rather obscure and not well known, and that we’d like to have you back to address some of those in the near future.

Well, we’ll see. Let’s see how tonight goes. Larry’s showing you can’t see it because you’re not on screen, but Larry’s showing Lee Oswald’s passport, which specifically is labeled that travel to Cuba is not permitted. So, I mean, you know the whole story about him going down.

Yeah. That was excellent work that Larry did on yeah, yeah. Okay, here we go. I’m going to put up the very first slide here, which, of course, is we before we get to that, I just want to do a quick thing. Tonight. I would like to talk about the Mary Mormon Polaroid image and the Phil Willis number five photograph. Right. But most importantly, I would like to discuss the credibility of Tom Wilson, Gordon Arnold, and Ed Hoffman. And before we get to that, I guess we could bring the first image up, which is, I guess, the Mormon Polaroid. Right. Okay. And the Associated Press acquired the rights to this image and basically were responsible for the version that we see not only today, but we’ve seen over the last, God knows how many years. Bringing up image number two. It should be a tight shot of the back of the President’s head. And you could see that it’s been darkened by retouching not only the back of the head, but the back of his suit jacket. That whole area is darkened to the point where, and I could be wrong about this recollection, gerald Posner, when he wrote Case Closed and was out in the media, whatever, had told people that looking at the Mormon Polaroid, it was taken just a second before the headshot. And the reason why he was able to state that was because that whole area of the back of the head is dark. So there’s no evidence of any kind of wound there. Before we go to the next image, I just want to tell you a little anecdote on the 50th anniversary. So that’s what, ten years ago, I decided to just stay home. Everybody was going to Dallas, I guess, but I decided to stay home and just watch all the TV specials that were going on. And then one of them aired on C Span, and it was a 1964 CBS special called The Warren Report. And in this special, you can get Walter Cronkite doing the voiceover. In the special, there’s an interview with Mary Mormon. She’s standing on the street there. They’ve interviewed her on Elm Street, and they’re talking to her about what she experienced that day and where she was and all this stuff. And then after they do that little interview, we hear Walter Cronkite’s voice segue to the fact that and this is the image of the photograph that Ms. Mormon took. And I guess now we can go to”Here is the text formatted into natural paragraphs for easy reading:

Image number three. We’re not getting any images, apparently. No, I just went back to the conversation while Rick was talking. Here it is. This is the fuzzy, you know, Rick, I wanted to add, I mean, Gerald Posner saying it was a moment before actually, it was just a moment. You know, they touched it up as you’re observing, which Posner was seeking to conceal. That’s what he’s going to get into now. Yeah, well, that’s obviously Posner was able to try to make that comment because there’s nothing that we can see in this retouched Mormon photograph that had been on the wire services for so many years to hide the true evidence of what had happened to the President.

But image are you able to bring up image number three? Yeah, there it is. Okay. Yeah. Number three. Would you say there’s a slight difference between number three and number two? Of course. Actually bring up number four, because that’s a side by side comparison. I don’t know how it looks on your monitor. Perfect. So what you can see there is the fact that CBS somehow had a copy of the Mormon image before anybody had retouched it. And you can obviously see a large blowout. I don’t know how the quality translated to what I sent you to what you’ve got on the screen now, but you can see it’s a large blowout in the back of Kennedy’s head in that CBS image that you don’t see in the Associated Press wire service version that we also have there. Larry, you can see a big blowout. My goodness.

All right, Larry, can you define the blowout here? Are we addressing the split screen? Yeah. Okay. And I suppose that the published one is the one on the right. No, the published one is the one on the left. Okay. And the one on the right, you can maybe circle around the blowout in the head with your mouse. Well, see, that’s what I’m trying to say. Where exactly is the blowout? Right there. There it is. The wider okay, I see it now. Yeah. Okay. All right. But obviously, just even comparing the two images in the back of the head, it’s worlds apart. Yeah. Okay. So it just goes to show you that this material in some people’s hands did exist back then before it was repressed. And unfortunately for CBS, somehow they remember there were no VCRs back in the day. So you saw the show live and that was it. And you probably had a second to retain what it was you were watching anyway, you know what I mean? But thank God for modern technology all these years later.

Okay, next. So before we go to number five, I want to talk a little bit about I’m sorry. Yeah. Before we get to number five, I want to say that something about Tom Wilson worked for US steel for 30 years using image processing to examine metal for structural defects. We don’t have the image anymore, Gary.

Yeah. Dr. PESS is working. He’s talking about Tom Wilson. I mean, Larry, I’m doing this deliberately. Okay. Yeah. We’re not getting to number five yet. We’ll get there in just a second. I just want to do a little intro. What Tom Wilson did. For instance, the human eye can distinguish 16 shades of gray. A computer image processor analyzing a photographic or film image can distinguish 250 shade 56 I’m sorry, shades of gray. So that’s a tremendous difference in trying to really get information out of these materials.

So bring up image number five. Okay, now, what you’re looking at there is a camera with fingers on the right side. And Tom had actually mentioned this find. This is from the Mormon Polaroid as well, over the years, but I had never actually seen it until after he passed away and his book came out with all of his photographic work. But this is a man holding a camera in the Mormon photograph in the area where badge man is. Let me go back to the Mormon and see if we can figure out where we’re talking about. Badgeman is supposed to be here. And you’re saying there’s a man holding a camera maybe here closer toward the edge of the you can’t discern ahead or any I mean, what Tom Wilson did, he was able to discern and bring out the actual physical camera that this individual is holding. And he would be in the area that we had been told Gordon Arnold was in, in the Mormon photograph way back in the mean you mean over on the steps, Rick? No, we’re the badge man. If you’ve seen the old work done by Gary Mack and Jack White okay, I got it. I got it. I got it right in this area. Okay, we got it right. And they said at the time they thought that was Gordon Old. But in any event, this is a man with a 16 millimeter camera in that area. And image number six I found was just a photograph of a man with that kind of camera back from the 60s, where you can actually see his right hand grasping the side of the camera, the fingers, just the way you see it in Tom Wilson’s processing of the Mormon. That’s a huge mother effing camera. My God, look at the size of that thing. Well, they had various versions of that aeroflex that had smaller film canisters on the top, but I was just looking for an image that showed the man the way he would hold it and the way his fingers would be on the camera. You know what I mean? To give you some kind of comparison as far as what you were seeing in the work that Wilson had, we do know one thing. They blotted out a lot of cameras in all the pictures that we had. Larry’s pointed it out many times where there’s women holding cameras and it’s all blotted out and many were flashing pictures. Yeah, so they can the fact that there’s a lot of missing evidence that they’ve deliberately suppressed. Go ahead, Rick.

Well, to basically complement what we just talked about, now that we have, through Tom Wilson, the image of somebody holding this camera. Now let’s go to the story of Rich Delarosa. And he claimed that he viewed the film or a film in 1970, 419 76, and again in the 1990s, and he said it was a 16 millimeter film. He then adds that the film he saw, and this is important, was taken from a different angle than the Zebruda film, making it another film, not the quote unquote, other Zebruda film. He said he saw the film twice as a college student and then a third time under classified conditions while on active military duty. So again, what’s important about what Rich experienced is the fact that he’s seen film taken by somebody other than Abraham Zabruder from a different angle, which now gives us a little bit of corroboration for this cameraman that Tom Wilson had discovered in the Mormon photograph. I think Rich said he’d seen the other film three different times, which is rather remarkable in, you know well, let’s get to Larry. Maybe we can come up with an explanation.

Hang on, Larry, have we no, no, I’m checking something. OK, I’m going back to the image Rick now. We got that very first. That would be relation to Rich enlargement number two. Okay, before we get to image number seven, I just want to give one more bit of corroboration for our cameraman up there. In 2016, Shauna Willis went public with a story about her father. And unfortunately, his name has been given, but I don’t have it to share with you tonight. I just didn’t look it up. She originally just called him Phil. And this is not to be confused with the Willis family or Phil Willis. This is somebody completely different. And in telling the story about her father, she said, quote, dad was a retired Master Chief, US Navy Photo Intelligence. His DD 2114 is dated 11 23 63. She stated that he had other intelligence clearances and had taken film during the assassination. She stated again that her father worked in the military as a photo intelligence officer and had taken film behind the picket fence on top of the knoll. No. And then she goes a little further and then she goes further. She goes further to say when the HSCA was established in 1976, because dad previously worked with Oni and CIA, he said that they came to him and asked him to pull and make new prints of the JFK materials from the DPD, which Dallas Police Department for the HSCA. SoHere we actually have the man we have the cameraman father of. So I think this comes full circle to kind of establish the fact that we actually had a guy with a camera in that area. You’re suggesting the camera that Tom Wilson identified was Willis? No, not Willis’s father. Well, Willis is Shauna Willis’s father. Not to be confused with Phil Willis. Right. I understand his last name, Jim, was not Willis. Her married name, I think, must be I don’t know what I can’t remember what his actual name was. They actually kept it secret for quite a while. But you’ve even figured out who the camera was that Tom Wilson identified in the Mormon Polaroid. Yeah, I guess we have him, thanks to Shauna coming forward back in 2016, I believe. So. Quite a bomb to drop, by the way, even at that late date with a picture to go.

Well, all the pieces of the puzzle have been out there, but now they’re slowly, finally being able to be assembled and put together so we can actually get a clear sense of what was really going on at that. Jack, jack White maintained that in the bronson and Jim published this, that Zapruder couldn’t have filmed the assassination because he was being blocked by his know and yeah, that whole thing that was going on up there, I don’t even know what the deal was with Zabruder, but I really missed. Yeah, no, he was one of the greats. Should I go to the let’s go to image number seven. Okay, this is a blow up of Roy Kellerman in the Mormon photograph sitting in the front seat. As you can see, he’s got some kind of book or something he’s actually putting in front of his face at that time.

Now, when Tom Wilson was doing his work on the Mormon photograph, and remember, his software and hardware was used for finding defects and anomalies and steel and metal and that kind of thing. And in working the Mormon photograph, lo and behold, he discovers a metallic anomaly, which through processing, revealed a bullet slug lodged in the steel arch above the connollies which the removable roof would sit on. And that should be photos eight, nine. And so if you want to do it and see kellman was shielding himself with something. Well, in that tight shot of Kellerman, he put some kind of a book or something up in front of his yeah. You hate to speculate about any of the stuff in this case, but I think that he may have very well, at that moment been responding to a shot that came through the windshield. Exactly. And he was reacting to this spickling hitting his face. And that is shown even in the Z film. Yeah, all the broken glass. And that’s what he was reaching for his cheek there, because he felt that sting there, from what I’ve heard. In any event, in this sequence of photos eight, nine and ten, it shows the work that Wilson did, the sequence of processing that part of the Mormon photograph and finding this anomaly, this slug that had been lodged in the arch. I never heard about that one before, Rick.

We’re not talking about the bullet that hit the chrome strip above the windshield, the front no, we’re not talking no talking about the divider where the bubble top rests from back to front. Right. Think of the McDonald’s arches. And there was an arch right above the Connolly’s in between their seats and the Secret Service guys in the front. And that’s where you would put the roof back on top. That’s what it would sit on. Yeah. Somehow, in a one in a million, a bullet slug lodged in that metallic chrome.

That’s actually chrome. That’s actually chrome. And I actually modeled it into the blender 3D model of the limousine, because, like you said, it arches from one side to the other, and it’s right in the middle of the limo. And that’s where the bubble top yes. Rests. Right. Photos eight and nine basically show Tom Wilson’s process of how he got to where he got and number ten is four Polaroid pictures that he sent me that I made a color laser copy of. That really show enlargement of the actual yeah. Go back. Yeah. That’s lodged in there. Okay. I was wondering what that’s that’s excellent. So we have Tom Wilson’s work in the Mormon photograph, discovering another slug, more evidence, and that came by mistake, that discovery. Is that right, Rick? I don’t know how he actually his computer software must have registered some kind of defect, right? Metallic defect. Yeah. I’m sure that’s how it happened. And then he worked it and worked it, which is what he did. He was a professional streaming down the gray scale until he was able to come up with what we are looking at right now. Yeah. And with the technology that was available at the time, obviously.

So this is the same fellow that was on the man who killed Kennedy. Absolutely. I’m familiar with that show. And you know where he said that the headshot came put the gun he put the gunman for the final headshot in the sewer. And if you look at that Mormon photograph from CBS that we looked at a few minutes ago with that large defect in the back of the head. Now, which the Mormon photograph was the source for him doing his trajectories for the bullet shots anyway. So you could see where it would go right into the ground, right into the sewer. And that’s the only way it lines up, Rick, because if you look at JFK’s head in position as he’s going down Elm Street at Z 312, 313, his head is in a position of 60 degrees forward. And when you have that type of alignment, the only source would have been the storm drain. There is no doubt about it. And like I said, the people on our side are I mean, David and I went down to the storm drain. David climbed into the storm drain. I agree.

And it had been filled with cement. According to John Judge, it had been filled at least a couple of feet, where at the beginning, he would get in there up to his armpits and then later on he would only fit up to his. So that kind of changed. Yeah. But David believed the angle was wrong. For the headshot to have been fired from the storm train isn’t a very may I address that? Yeah. Two things. Well, number one, as far as having a guy being able to fit in there back in the 70s, this writer who was actually very anti conspiracy writing for the Texas Monthly magazine with Penn Jones actually went and went into the sewer. And he himself had to admit that there was room for somebody to be in there. And the problem over the years is that they paved Elm Street over and over and over again. So the size of the actual hole itself has been diminished probably by 50%. When I was in Dallas years ago, when I first wanted to look at this whole situation, I went to one of the sewer openings on that side road in front of the Depository. That wasn’t actually it was offshoot from Elm Street. And I looked at their sewer opening and it was twice as much, twice as large as the one on Elm Street. So you can’t use that to define your understanding of this.

But number two, people keep attributing the shot from the sewer with 313 or at least where they put the X on Elm Street. And that’s incorrect. Whatever shot hit Kennedy at that point was not the sewer shot. The limousine continued to move forward and slightly to the left. And as the limousine came more down Elm Street and then slowed to a stop that aligned the shot from the sewer. And the guy wasn’t using a rifle, he was using a 45 with a silencer because anything else would have blown his eardrums out. And it’s agreed that Greer brought the limo to a complete stop because we know from the escort and the newcomb tapes what happened right after that. Right. And the reason why when Wilson went down to Dealy Plaza to do the whole trying to trace where the shots came from, he didn’t use any Zebrruda film because they couldn’t be trusted time wise or any wise. And he only used the Polaroid, the Mormon Polaroid because it’s a fixed photograph with fixed positions around the sewer area so you can actually do a fair trajectory and an honest one exactly when and where that shot came from.So, he did some terrific work using the image. But let me reiterate, David and I went to the sewer. David climbed into the sewer. He said the angle was wrong for that to have been a headshot. Now a .45 with a silencer. Jesus Christ, man. That would have taken the man’s head off. But David Rick, I do not know about this. I will ask David. I’m going to send him this show. David is an oncologist, he’s not a forensic.

Well, I guess the question that I have, Jim, is where aside from being inside the sewer and you have an opening that’s only 50% of what it was back in ’63. So that’s already against you. But besides that, where did David Mantic put the actual limousine that he was trying to fire a shot to? Where would he have placed that limousine? We know it was further down than Elm Street. Yeah, we know that, Rick, but I mean, I will address this. This is a big question. I’m just saying based upon previous experience being there and remember, the guy’s a leading expert on the head wounds at JFK in the world. But until he does what Tom Wilson did, which is put himself physically on Elm Street in the place where JFK was sitting in the Mormon photograph and then do a trajectory from back through the front because the try to find where the shot came from. As Larry would say, it leads only in one place downward and into the ground. And you got to understand the other thing about this. When Wilson went there, he had no set agenda. He had no idea where the shot for the headshot had come from. He knew where the exit one was in the back of the head and where he felt the entrance was on the forehead. But other than that, he didn’t have a set agenda. And he was shocked when he realized, my God, this is going into the ground. And then all of a sudden you realize there’s a silver opening there. I’m going to share this with David, as I say, and we’ll get his reaction. Larry, go ahead.

Well, David has my book and it’s included in the book. And I just know the chapter in my book that addresses that know, Larry, this is something I’ve overlooked. And you also believe that a shot to the head was fired from inside the sewer opening? Yeah, it’s covered in the book, I believe chapter 18. Yeah. Addresses that entire look into this more. All right, we have another slide coming. Yeah, a bunch of other slides. We got quite a few of them. Yeah.

Okay, well, the reason why I wanted to talk about Tom Wilson and then we’ll get into this next image. Number eleven is the fact that if you go on the internet, whether it’s the Education forum or these various JFK assassination Facebook pages, and you see Tom Wilson’s name brought up, the majority of the people responding to that are calling him a fraud. And the reason they do that is because they have absolutely no understanding of his experience, his technology, the equipment he had, the software he had, or anything else. It’s just, again, a knee jerk reaction to seeing something they can’t comprehend or assimilate or understand, and therefore they’ll just dismiss it arbitrarily. But everything in this case needs to be corroborated. Science needs to be corroborated with eyewitnesses or vice versa. And that’s the only way you can actually then say this is factual, truth, hypothesis, speculation by itself doesn’t do it. You really have to back up what you so I presented you just now with Tom Wilson discovering a slug in that arch in the limousine. Now, by itself, then, you’re faced with, well, I’ll either accept Wilson’s science and his discovery, or I won’t. So how do we prove that this actually happened? What Tom Wilson did not know first of all, I did not know that Tom Wilson was working and had found this in the Mormon photograph. What Tom Wilson didn’t know is the fact in 1994, when I was selling these video cassettes, I had licensed, as you guys know, “Men of Kil* Kennedy” for video after A and E had run it back in the fall of ’91. And people would call up A and E wanting to buy the set, and they couldn’t because they didn’t have the right. So they’d give them my telephone number. So one day I got a phone call from a guy in Cincinnati. You want to bring up the Hess and Eisenhardt slide now? Number eleven. Sure.

But I want to add another word about what we’re talking about here in terms of replicability and so forth, because in my discussions, and I think I had them with both John Costella and with David Mantic. The problem with Tom Wilson’s analysis, for example, of the wound to the back of the head, which is awesome, was not knowing how to replicate it. Now, Rick, we need to be able to replicate it. That was their reservation. And why it couldn’t be taken for granted that it was right, even though it was, I mean, fascinating and in my opinion, highly plausible, but there was a need to be able to replicate. Are you capable of specifying how you say replicate? I don’t understand quite what you’re saying. Replicate how? We can use the same technique he used. What exactly was the technique he used to discern those layers of the blowout to the back of the head? I think anybody who’s a professional computer image processing analyst, given that material, I’m sure, could probably duplicate all of Wilson’s work, because it’s science. It’s not something that one man comes up with and somebody else is going to come up with a different thing. The thing is, none of us own that equipment. None of us have that expertise. And even going to what Wilson did in Dealy Plaza to try to find the trajectory of the shot that struck Kennedy in the front. No one else that I’ve seen in all these documentaries over the years has ever done the same thing, which is start from the exit wound in the back of the head, work through the front, and see where that bullet came from. Everything else that we’ve seen is starting with a shot that came out of Kennedy, the front of Kennedy’s head. Zapruder film Go out the back of his head up to the 6th floor window. That’s what’s been done over the years. But nobody but Wilson ever did the real way that this thing should be analyzed. No shots were fired from the 6th floor. We know the bullshit, Rick. No, but that’s the way these documentaries and Dale Myers and all these other, how, that’s the way they want us to understand it. No one here and no one we’re talking about is played by that bullshit. None of us go to Is*ac. No, but what I’m saying, Jim, is when these documentaries were done for Discovery Channel, whatever, they put a limousine right there at 313 or wherever they DX on Elm Street, and then with a laser, they would have a thing going from Kennedy’s head back to the window. Never once did they think or even attempt to do it in reverse to go, alright, let’s start from the back of his head and go forward and see where that laser goes. Never did it. And I have to also to your point there, in the same manner that we did with the shot from under the triple overpass, going back and tracing it from the origin. And like I said, I just mentioned chapter 18 of my book details and also cites Tom Wilson’s work and all the other researchers, like Penn Jones, who used to crawl through the pipes there, going through the manhole cover at the time, which, like I said before, went a lot deeper. And at one point he could go through the very intricate pattern of pipes and drainage pipes that went under Dealy Plaza, where he could go across Elm Street and then go east and come out to the basement of the Dallas Police Department.

Alright, I’m glad you mentioned that, because one of the things in episode six that dismayed me about because I wasn’t there when they shot the whole sequence with the sewer thing and Tom Wilson, whatever, is that this guy that I had put together with Turn, Jack Brazil, right? Jack Brazil gets in the soil and then he supposedly walks a mile through these thing, ends up at the Trinity River to lead us to believe that that was the escape route, whichHere is the text reformatted into natural paragraphs:

“Was nonsense. And it was a quick ten minutes. Yeah, but that was completely wrong. It was nonsense. What people don’t realize is that that series of sewer openings from the one that we’re talking about right now, where there was a man with a gun in diagonally right across the infield of Dele Plaza, all the way across to where the South Knoll is, and right up above to the South Knoll is that building. That’s a federal building. I guess recent years, the US post Office was located in there, called the Annex Building. The Annex.
Do you know in 1963, what other office was housed in that building? Secret Service was there. The postal inspector was there. You name it. Yeah. I got one more for you. The Office of Naval Intelligence. Why not? And I also want to say that in the map of Dealy Plaza and in a 3d blender rendition and model that I worked on for almost ten years, there are many storm drains that are actually bilateral from one another. Because if you look at Deli Plaza, in fact, it is completely mirror image of each other from north to south. Okay? So you’ve got the north part and the pergolas are almost exactly the same. Now, in there, even another researcher suggested that there might have been a shot from one of the storm drains from the other side. All right? And that I never really studied or anything, but I’m just telling you that those were positions of concealment that are ideal positions for snipers. They always shoot from concealed positions. And we know the cubby hole over there under the triple underpass, and you’ve got the diversions going on at the picket fence and all over the place, and the kill shot, boom, is concealed. Absolutely. There’s no doubt about it. Right.
I know we digress there for a second, but what I wanted to tell you guys, we got image eleven up now. Yeah. Okay. In 1994, I get a call from this guy, Bill Carr from Cincinnati. He wants to buy the videos. And then at the end of our conversation, he says, you know, by the way, I’ve been trying to reach Nigel Turner and Oliver Stone, and I have no luck at all in connecting with these guys. And I have a friend up here who has some information, and he was one of the managers at SN eisenhardt. So he gives me the guy’s number, name and number, and I contact him. And then just to kind of get a little credibility, I sent him a copy of the you know, and he viewed that and then I spoke to him a second time. His name was Jay Leahy. He was one of the floor managers at Eisenhorn. And when the limousine was received by them, I don’t know, it was four weeks later or whatever, after the assassination, when they were going to start rebuilding the car for LBJ, another guy by the name of Arlo Childers found the slug in Cincinnati. Oh, Cincinnati. Now, at Hessen, heisenhort now, when I first heard the story, I interviewed the guy, I just forgot about it. And then years later when I saw Wilson and what he had discovered in that area, because in my know, I was told this guy, Arlo Childers, his area of expertise was trim. He was a trim guy. So when I heard trim, in my mind I’m thinking what you mentioned earlier about that indentation above the windshield, Jim, that we’ve seen in the FBI photographs. Yeah, right. So in my mind I’m thinking, well, that’s where they found a slug. But it couldn’t have been that because the photos were taken long before with no slug in there, long before the car was even received in Cincinnati. So when I went back to my interview, lo and behold, the guy was the slug was found above the car in the arch that you would put the roof on. So here is the guy in Cincinnati who actually found and removed the very slug that you see in Wilson’s work on the Mormon photograph. And I’ve never shared that with almost anybody. Where do we think that was fired? Good question. Well, most of the trajectory would have been second floor of the dialtex building, perhaps a flat trajectory. Right. It had to be. But anyway, it just shows that evidence, photographically and scientifically, is now corroborated with someone who physically found the know, bullet evidence that we’re seeing in Wilson’s image processing. So I would tell that story to anybody who calls Wilson and his work fraudulent or garbage in and garbage. Right. Next.
Okay, we’re going to get to image number twelve. Let’s talk about Gordon Arnold. We’re there. Now. Image twelve, I think, is a screen grab from Gordon Arnold being filmed on the middle Kennedy, and he’s with the camera showing them where he was at the time he was taking his film. So let’s take a look at his story for a second. On August 22, 1978, earl Goals wrote an article for the Dallas Morning News and, quote, as the presidential limousine came down Elm Street toward the triple underpass, Arnold stood on a mound of fresh dirt and started rolling his film. He said he felt the first shot come from behind him, only inches over his left shoulder. He said, quote, I had just gotten out of basic training. Arnold said, in my mind, live ammunition was being fired. It was being fired over my head, and I hit the dirt. Arnold, then 22, said that the first two shots came from behind the fence, quote, close enough for me to fall down on my face. He stayed there for the duration of the shooting.
Now, Gordon Arnold, like Tom Wilson, is another one that takes the hit on the Internet, is lying and Caucasian story for attention and money. You know why, Rick? Well, the main thing they use is we don’t see him in any of the photographs. Therefore, logically, he was never there and he concocted the whole story. That’s what you hear from all these people on the Internet. Also, besides that, he was featured in a study called a Rich Man’s Trick, and where he was brought out as a crisis actor. Who. Yeah, I’ve heard of that film, but I never remembered seeing anything about yeah. Oh, yeah, check it out. In who’s who in JFK, it says, recent computer enhancements of the Mary Mormon photograph substantiate Arnold’s statements. In the Mormon photograph, the man directly behind Arnold firing a rifle over the fence appears to be wearing a policeman’s uniform and has long been referred to as Rick. What Rick is talking about right now he’s never heard about the comment that I just made about that documentary that I just it’s on the Internet. You can find it there. Well, the beauty is that people can come up with comments or speculation on anything that they want. But the thing is, again, the only thing that we need to do is corroborate things to find the truth. So I’m going to corroborate right now for you gordon Arnold’s statement. I’m going to start with a statement from a Secret Service report done a few days after the assassination. And this is from secret agent Thomas Johns in the follow up car behind LBJ. Quote on the right side of the motorcade from the street, a grassy area sloped upward to a small two or three foot concrete wall with a sidewalk area. When the shots sounded, I was looking to the right and saw a man standing then being thrown or hit to the ground. And this, together with the shots, made the situation appear dangerous to me and was confirmed by Congressman Yarbrough, of course, right. That man Yarbrough in the we know we’ve heard his statement already. But here’s the Secret Service guy stating the same thing.
Now, I’m going to read this next thing to you in its entirety because a lot of people may not even know it exists or were familiar with it or aware of it. And I think what’s in this is very important. So hopefully you’ll bear with me. This is an HSCA statement of a telephone contact with Rosemary Willis on eleven 878 for the HSCA. Now, when I saw this, first of all, I thought, well, this is kind of interesting, because I don’t think, correct me if I’m wrong you guys know more about this than I do. That the HSCA never went to Charles Brem or Bill Newman or the motorcycle policemen to ask or get statements or testimony from them. And yet they’re contacting somebody who was eleven years old at that time. Why would they do such a thing?”What could she tell them? Well, this is what she had to say. Notwithstanding her father’s admonition to stay with him on the grass section of the southwest corner of Houston and Elm Street, she ran alongside JFK’s limousine almost to the triple underpass. Let that sink in. She managed to stay on the grass area and estimates that she was within three car lengths of the underpass before she stopped. In retrospect, she realized that by running alongside JFK’s limousine, she had inadvertently given herself the opportunity to view the spectators on the grassy knoll as the background.

As she watched JFK, she is still able to recall two people who were conspicuous: one by holding an umbrella and obviously more concerned with opening and closing it than dropping to the ground like everyone else, except a second person, Gordon Noel. Except a second person she saw who had been standing just behind the wall section, nearer to the joining area of the underpass and grassy knoll. The latter person seemed to be there, yet disappeared the next instant.

So let’s see. What was this point? Oh, this is still from the HSCA contact report. Pinpointing this location further, it could best be described as the corner section of the white wall between Zabruder’s right side and the top of the concrete stairway leading up from the approximate center of the grassy knoll. Now, she’s also telling us here that there was a man behind that white wall in that corner just at the top of the stairs leading up from Elm Street, who was there, and then all of a sudden he wasn’t because he hit the ground. I think that’s a second. Yeah, that’s more corroboration of the fact that there was a man there, and that man was Gordon Arnold. He hit, in my opinion, he hit the deck.

Also, as part of this HSCA interview, they also talked to her father, and he was talking about the slides, the photos, and they said that Mr. Willis’s second photo, which would be actually Willis number six, depicts practically the same scene, except the limo is further down the street. Actually, the limo has already left at this point. And then what appears to be ahead behind the corner section of the wall previously mentioned in Willis five is no longer visible. Black Dog, so what they’re saying is basically in Willis five, Willis saw what he perceived to be at least the head of somebody in that photograph. And then in the next photo he took, Willis six, that person is no longer there. So now you have that from the Willis family. Shall we move on to Ed Hoffman?

Yeah, I just took the next. How are we doing on time, Gary? We got, like, two or three minutes left. Might have to do a part two.

Wow. We’re going to have to because we still have a little ways to go. Little ways to go. Image number 13. Gary, couldn’t we just run over? I think Rick’s probably got ten or 15 minutes max to go here.

Alright, well, let’s just go ahead and roll through them. All right. We’ll get through this quickly then. Image number 13 now, I believe is that Ed Hoffman on the set of JFK?

Yeah. Okay, so those are the men with Ed that he described as he had witnessed. And I guess they dressed him up for the movie, but then they never used it. But nevertheless, that’s what the men that Ed Hoffman described and what he saw.

So now I’m going to read you something from Lee Bowers. And we know who he is. He’s up in the tower, right? He’s looking down over the parking lot. Quote, there were, at the time of the shooting, in my vision, only two men. These two men were standing back from the street somewhat at the top of the incline and were very near two trees which were in the area. And one of them, from time to time, as he walked back and forth, disappeared behind a wooden fence, which is also slightly to the west of that. These two men, to the best of my knowledge, were standing there at the time of the shooting. One of them, as I recall, was a middle-aged man, fairly heavy-set, with a dark suit, a tie, and a white shirt, and he remained in sight practically all the time. The other individual was slightly different, slide-r build and had either a plaid jacket or a plaid shirt on. So we have Lee Bowers describing these two men that Ed Hoffman has described. Now, what I just told you has never been seen because it’s an outtake from “Rush to Judgment” that was never used. Right. Actual final edit Mark Lane. That Mark Lane did those interviews. So very important interviews. He interviewed Bowers, but this whole statement of describing the men and what they were wearing never made it into the right. Right. And what I read you is from a transcript of all of the footage that de Antonio had shot, interviews and such for his movie.

Now, when I found out about Antonion [sic] had already passed away, I contacted his wife because I was looking to see, well, can we get the raw, you know, that I just described to you and see it on film? And she said, well, all of his materials and film and outtakes and everything had been donated to, and I must be confused with this chuma because I thought she said to me, University of Minnesota, and that’s where you’re yeah, yeah. But you would know if the De Antonio collection resided there, so it probably wasn’t there. So in my mind, probably [it] was University of Michigan. But nevertheless, she told me what university it was. I contacted their archives, said that I understand you have the de Antonio collection and this footage. And I’m trying to locate the footage that pertains to this interview transcript. And they looked for it. It’s gone. All the footage is yeah, yeah. All right. It was not the university, right? So it must have been Michigan. But nevertheless, here’s one more example of corroboration for a witness that’s taken a lot of hits at Hoffman over the years as being a liar and in for the money and in for the notoriety and all that stuff. Don’t say that to Casey, Brian. No, but again, these are trolls on the Internet, so we take that for what it’s worth.

But now, image 14, this is very interesting. I got a map here for you. Do you see the map? Yes. You do? Okay. You see gunman number one, which is in the badge man position. You got gunman number two in the Ed Hoffman gunman position. And from gunman number two, you got a shot fired from him going through the Stemmons Freeway sign at what time frame in the Z timeline? I couldn’t tell you where roughly was the limo at the time that shot was fired. Like 180, maybe some of the frames that were missing. 177, 78, those. Would that be accurate, or would it be because obviously that’s with a limo further up Elm Street. So what do you think, Jim? Well, the missing frames, that was such a blatant thing to do. Had it? Because something spectacular happened to the stem. Like this? Yeah, that it really fragmented, that it was discernible that a bullet hit the sign. Didn’t they take it out the next day? The very next day. The sign, I had heard that. You mean the real Stemmons sign out of Dealy Plaza, it was removed right away because it had a bullet hole in it? Yeah. And then when they reconstructed the film, they put it back in the wrong know, we have that John Costella nailed. Look at those. We’re going to look at the Stemmons Freeway sign a second. Right. I’ve just turned to the o. You can see the hole and where the o is and the stem. Very good, Rick. Go ahead. That’s from Willis five. And just to corroborate that, I’m not sure what film this came from. The next image, number 16, is from another film. It’s a grab shot showing the Stemmons Freeway sign. And once again, it already has the anomaly. It already has the anomaly for us. So you got photo 16, same thing. And number 17, I found this on the Internet. Somebody had made an illustration for people with their eyes who can’t see the damage to the o and the Stemmons sign exactly what it looks like. Yeah, that’s fairly funny. Really good. You know, Ralph Sinke went up there the other day and put up a sign holding it up and everything, trying to match a Z film or something like that. Right.Jim? I think that’s right, Larry. And of course, he couldn’t do it because Z film has gotten a misplaced sign. Well, I’m not sure how much more time I have, but quickly, I want to take you through this. So the map that we just looked at with those gunmen in it and the knowledge that shot through the Stemons Freeway sign, where do you think I got that map?

This one? The one that’s on the screen, right? Yeah, yeah, the one that we looked at the map with the gunmen in the wait. Jesse Curry’s book. Just no a stab. I won’t keep you in suspense.

The map with the two gunmen in those positions, I think we’ve established now, and a whole damage to Stemmons Freeway sign, which I believe we just looked at the photograph showing that damage came from a book called Farewell America, written in 1968.

James Hepburn. Yeah, the French intelligence wrote that book, and in 1968, they knew that there were those two shooters and damage to the stemming three way sign. Now I’m going to read you what was in the appendix in the back of that book, which I think is important.

Quote, we challenge United Press International to release and to allow international experts to examine the complete and uncropped photograph taken by a Dallas resident, Mrs. Mormon, and to which it holds the rights. We have copies of this photograph. Reports from the two best laboratories in Europe leave no doubt as to its authenticity. It shows President Kennedy from the back at the very instant that he was struck by the fatal bullet. But it also shows in the background two of the gunmen described or designated on the map as gunmen one and two. On the map, the first gunman is still holding his rifle. The second has just pulled the trigger and is clearly distinguishable behind the barrel of his gun.

Now, obviously, the Mormon photographs that we refer to now, that’s available to us there’s retouching to hide gunman number two. This is the gunman that Ed Hoffman had seen, but he definitely is there. And the French intelligence in 1968 put it in a book which would never made it to the United States. We didn’t find these. They were found in a warehouse in Canada, I believe, in the early 90s. But you know what? I went to the Boston Public Library and I found it, Jim, in Portuguese. Portuguese. God.

Let’s quickly I think we’re down to the wire here. Let’s go to image number 18. I’m there. Okay, we’re back to the tight shaw, the Willis Five photograph. And it shows an example in my mind, anyway, with the naked eye, I hope you could see it. There’s extensive retouching in the background behind in that picket fence area. You could see they’re hiding something in this image. And then we have that image of what has been described by Robert Groan as the Black Dog Man.

The interesting story about this slide, Willis Five, is the fact that Willis went to the Kodak lab that day and was accompanied by the FBI, and he looked at the slides after they were developed. But then at some point, he turned them over to the FBI, and it’s months later he got the slides back. And this is according to his daughter, Linda Willis. Her father, Phil, was very upset because when he got his slides back, he saw they’d been altered. In his original slide, you can see the box. Yeah. And then his original slide, you could see the train through the slats of the pergola on the right. They had been whitened in on the slides that was returned to him. So if they’re going to do that to hide the train behind the pagola, then they certainly are capable of retouching that area behind the Black Dog Man.

Yeah. So that brings us to our final image here, image 19. Yeah, I think I got it already. Up the comparison. Right. The thing about the retouching on the Willis. It had to be so meticulous to go in through all of the different squares of what do you call it, the blocks made up. Yeah, the ornamental blocks to go into each and every one of them to erase the train. It’s incredible.

Well, the work they did on all the films and photographs was beyond comprehension. But that’s a show for another, right? Exactly. Well, they let us see. They’d done the work on it. They felt comfortable letting it in the public domain. But this final image here, this really brought it home for me, because you’ve got side by side the image from Willis five of the quote unquote, Black Dog Man in the exact same position Gordon Arnold put himself in, in shooting the men who killed pressing Gordon Arnold is what you’re saying. So what I’m saying is Gordon Arnold was the black dog man. Right. And they were suppressing and the Black Dog Man was created. They retouched that part of the image to hide Gordon Arnold diving to the ground and reacting to a shot that was fired from behind the fence behind him. Absolutely. So Gordon Arnold, for people who said there’s no photographs of Gordon Arnold, well, there’s a reason for that, but, yeah, he’s in Willis Five. He’s just been retouched, Rick. He’s even tilted a little bit over, like he’s almost well, he’s probably diving toward the ground at that point, perhaps, as he stated. Hey, what about the you know, when Gary made that comment, when we did the Jeff K horseman? Hey, man, if I had a Harley coming at me, I’d be running my ass away from that.

Yeah, Rick, this has just the thing is, the Black Dog Man in Willis Five is reacting to a shot that’s just been fired past his left ear, that just went through the stemming freeway sign, which we can see the damage on. And this is all in Willis Five, the whole sequence. So at one end, you got Ed Hoffman seeing the gunman firing. Then you got in front of that fence, Gordon Arnold reacting to that shot, which has now gone through the Stemmers freeway sign. And we’re getting this from the Willis Five photograph. Unfortunately, it took me 30 something OD years to realize that. Unfortunately and I’d hate to think Nigel Turner realized or knew about this, but certainly I’m going to put this in Gary Mack’s corner that they led us to believe that that figure in the Mormon blow up that jack. White had worked on was in fact and because they wanted to sell the fact that Arnold could corroborate the badge man, that’s also in that image. But now what we’ve come to realize is the fact that, yeah, there’s a cameraman there right near in front of the Badge Man shooter. But it wasn’t Gornado. It was Shauna Willis’s father. Hey, I can get Shauna Willis for a show anytime you guys want. You guys. Let me know, man. We can get her. What you wait. Rick. Rick, we want to bring you back. I mean, this has just been sensational. I can’t thank you enough, really. Excellent. All right. The last time we did this was 15 years ago. So I don’t know. We’ll have to wait another 15 years to do it again? I don’t think so. That wouldn’t work on my agenda. All right, you’re ready? Well, I can’t believe we got through all of that stuff. We did it. Good job. Good job. All right, everyone, look, this has been JFK show number 288. Jim Fetzer, larry Rivera me, gary King and Rick Russo. We really appreciate and we’ll see you next week. Bye.

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