All right, Katie, I don’t know if you’ve seen my. Any of my podcasts, but I always do what I call a stupid introduction, which means I don’t say, well, so and so went to Duke and then whatever, because I don’t remember that, and I don’t actually care very much. So I. I usually say some impression, especially initial impression, and I don’t remember how. I think the first time, our first encounter was when you interviewed me for your podcast. Yeah. And I don’t actually know how that came about, but it doesn’t really matter. But the main thing I remember from that is afterwards, when we were going to do a second one, you said to me, could you please not refer to doctors as idiots? And actually, I actually thought that was a great request because, I mean, first of all, it’s inappropriate of me to do that.

And I thought it was a very legitimate, sound thing to ask. So I like that. So with that, Katie has actually come a little bit more into our circle and has actually done the curriculum and is coming to some of the doctors meetings at the clinic. And so she’s. I think, you know, I would. I think it’s safe to say you’re on the periphery of our world here, and that’s good. I think it’s hopefully working out for you. Maybe we’ll hear a little bit about that, but I’ve. I’ve heard only good things from our crew as far as the, you know, the.

The value of having you, part of us. So it seems like everything is going well. So the question that people want to hear is who are you? And how does an oncologist by training end up with this crew in the new biology clinic sort of world? And again, thanks for being here, by the way. This is another episode of conversations with Dr. Cowan and friends. I told I should always say that, but I forget. So anyways, welcome, and maybe just start by, you know, who are you? What. How did. What was your journey? Because I’ve heard some of it and it sounds really fascinating.

And so how did you get. What happened here? Sure. Well, thank. Thank you, Tom, for having me. It’s my pleasure to be here. And so I was a traditional radiation oncologist. I practiced for 20 years, specializing in breast and gynecologic cancers. And I also served as a healthcare leader, really running end to end cancer care for a large healthcare organization in the US and in 2018, things started to pop up for me. And the first time that I started to question my profession was when I was at a Meditation retreat. And I heard the parable of the river.

And the story goes something like this. There’s a. You know, once upon a time, there was a village perched alongside of a river. And one day the villagers noticed a person drowning in the river. And so they sent someone out to rescue that person. And then the next day there were two people drowning, and they organized and rescued those two people. And then the next day, four, and then eight and 16, and it was doubling every day. And so the villagers became very organized and created elaborate rescue teams with boats and pulleys and rescue protocols. And the village elders praised the villagers for such an amazing job of rescuing the people out of the river.

And I was at that meditation retreat, good friend who’s a GYN oncologist, and my heart just sunk. And I turned to her and I said, this is us. Like, this is what we’re doing. We are glorified rescue workers on the river. And, like, what the heck is happening upstream? Like, why is this happening? And also, by the way, we’re getting the people onto dry land. But then I have no idea what caused their cancer. And who knows that they’re going to fall back in the river? And so that started in 2018, like, where my wheels started turning.

And I was like, something is wrong here. But I couldn’t put my finger on it, because when you’re living in that world, everything is organized around that, and they’re saying, you’re doing such a good job. And. But I knew something was off. And in 2019, I started to hang on a minute and just to say, I didn’t say this, but I see some part of my role here in this, and I may interrupt if. And just to clarify things so I. And I don’t forget. But the thing that. I mean, it’s a great story. How did you end up at a meditation retreat in the first place? So I’ve always been, I would say, spiritual and seeking and.

But not in my career, necessarily. So it was. I was into meditation. I was years, for years. So I was raised Catholic and. But made to, you know, do the whole Catholic thing. And at 15, I just was so angry that I had been made to be confirmed. And I basically eschewed God and all things religious. And when I was 20, my sister’s best friend died, was dying of a brain tumor, pineal blastoma. And she called me and she asked me to pray for her best friend. And she was so upset, and I just realized. I was like, oh, my gosh, I can’t pray.

I really believed that there’s something greater than me. But I couldn’t pray to that, whatever it was, because here I had just abandoned it for since I was 15. And so that night I just pleaded with God or whatever is the source, and said, if you show me, I will seek you. And the next morning when I was running, so I was a professional triathlete at one point, and so I had been continued to train, and I. The next morning I was running, and I came across a book in my pathway while I was running. And I was like, I think that book is for me.

And I was going to go get a coffee, and I said, if it’s still there when I come back, I’m going to pick it up. And I came back and the book was still there, and I picked it up, and it was Houston Smith’s Religions of the World. And there was a chapter for all the different types of religions in the book. And for me, that started me on a journey of just seeking through spirituality and looking at different religions. And so I had kind of continued that through my entire adult life. Would you say that was the first time? It’s probably not the first time, but it was an important time in you realizing there was more ways of being spiritual than being a Catholic.

Yeah, because I think what had happened with Catholicism is I had just completely shut it down and had just cut that part off. And I was like, screw God, screw all this stuff, the guilt and the, you know, things that were taught in the church. And. And then this was kind of an opening of me realizing, like, oh, I do believe that there is something bigger, and I want to know what it is. And I don’t want to follow dogma. I want to kind of follow my own path. Got it. And, you know, it’s interesting because my impression even of this story with the.

At the meditation retreat, is that wasn’t the first time for you. It’s a sort. It’s a sort of way. Place to begin this story. But you’d been in this. You, you know, even being a triathlete is not the usual path for most doctors. I mean, some. That’s not that unusual, but yeah. All right, well. And even my pathway into medicine was kind of unusual. And death, as we will see is. That has been a common thread throughout my whole life. But the way that I came into medicine was that I was a biopsychology, a neuroscience major as an undergrad.

And I was wondering, like, what I could do with that. And I knew that medicine was one of the things and my mom, who was a nurse practitioner, was kind of cautioning me against it. And so I was like, okay, well, what’s the one thing that I really wouldn’t like about medicine? And I said, well, I’d never been around anyone in. Close to me in my family who had died. I actually had a best. Not a best friend, but very close friend die in fourth grade of leukemia. But I really hadn’t had much experience with death.

And so I thought that being around people dying would be the worst part of medicine. So I decided, and this is unusual. This is probably when you’d be listening to the story and being like, this is weird. Like, what is. What’s going on with this girl? But I basically was thinking that death would be the hardest thing that. To deal with in medical school. And so I went ahead and volunteered at hospice. And that experience changed my life. And I learned things from being around people who were dying that I had not been taught, you know, by my family or whatever.

Like, what. What did they wish they had done differently? What do they wish they did more of, you know, and things that I heard then and then continue to hear throughout my career is know they wish they had the courage to be themselves and be authentic. And so that was just, like, really beautiful being around people who were facing their own mortality. And that’s why I actually went into oncology. And so. Yeah. Would you say. Would you say it’s a characteristic of you to figure out or determine in some way or somehow that happens what would be hard for you and then try to do it? Yeah.

Well. And actually, the funny thing is, when you invited me to your staff meetings, I was, like, intimidated because I’m new in this space, and I was scared. And actually I was like, shoot. I mean, this is. It was the first day of school for my daughter when I first came to your staff meeting, and I was like, I could just cancel and say, you know, it’s first day of school and it’s too stressful. And I was like, no, you’re scared, so you’re going to go. Because that’s actually means that you’re in the right spot if you’re pushing yourself and you’re.

It’s making you feel uncomfortable. So in everything that I’ve done, I was a springboard diver before I was a triathlete. And that’s all about fear and conquering your fear. So this is. That’s definitely been a theme for me. I mean, it. Yeah, it’s. It’s a profound insight into life, like, for Instance, you know, Tom Brady, the football player. When he was asked how come he got to be Tom Brady, you know, the football player, he said, I only worked on things that I was bad at. Now, a lot of us who’ve been athletes and other things, what you realize is that you practice the things you’re good at because it’s fun.

Right? You, you know, like, I’m good at doing this shot, so I keep doing it over and over. Look at how good I am. And you, you never become, you know, Tom Brady as far as a football player, because that’s not the way to. To get anywhere. And it’s a hard lesson to learn. And it seems like you. You sort of got the hang of that. Well, I think that’s. It served me well. And I’ve come to the top of. Not the very top of fields, but gotten pretty high up. I was a Division 1 diver in college, and then I got injured and I couldn’t dive.

And my coach said to stay in shape. My boyfriend was a triathlete. My third triathlon, I made the national team and was, you know, a professional triathlete. Train, you know, traveling the world, and then in medicine, I, you know, ended up at the end of my career, right before I left, I was nominated for the national medical director of one of the largest healthcare organizations in the US And I know that now. I, like, cringe. I’m like, oh, it wasn’t real good work that I was doing, but this fear, you know, really embracing my fears and just going after things has allowed me to accomplish things that I wouldn’t have been able to do if I hadn’t been willing to go into the fear.

Yeah. And be uncomfortable. That’s a kind of a synopsis of how to succeed or how to get the most out of yourself. That’s a funny way to say it, but, you know. Yeah. All right, that’s fascinating. All right, so now we go. You had this meditation, and then I interrupted you. What was going to happen next? Yeah. So in 2019, I started to get the message that you’re not supposed to be practicing radiation oncology. And that message just didn’t make sense. And I had been telling my. There you are, like, national Radiation Oncologist of the Year, sort of.

Whatever. Whatever. Right. But, yeah, I was also an entrepreneur, so I have a patent, and I had a clothing line for women with sensitive skin from radiation treatments. And so I was doing that and all these, you know, but I knew that I wasn’t going to leave medicine to go run an Apparel brand that was really just as, like, a service, like a passion project to help these women find comfortable clothes. But I was starting to say to my husband, something’s off. Like, I don’t know if this is what I’m supposed to be doing. And he was saying, well, you didn’t finish training until you were 32.

Like, what are you going to do? And I was just like, I don’t know. I just am getting this message, and I don’t know what it means. And so he basically said to me that, you know, if you are not happy making half a million dollars a year, you know, you are good at your job, you’re doing something meaningful, treating cancer. Your colleagues love you, your patients love you, and you have, like, everything you would want materially. Maybe you’re never going to be happy. Like, maybe the problem is you’re never going to be satisfied. And so I, in turn.

Now, I know that that’s obviously not correct, but. And we’re no longer. That’s one way to look at it. Correct. Yeah. So I internalized that for a while and was trying to figure out, like, reconcile, why am I having these feelings? And two events happened, and both coming back to the theme of death. One was that I had been with a patient when she transitioned, and this was actually using medical aid and dying. And I had only done. I only had one patient who ever ended up taking those medications. She had advanced esophageal cancer. She was 83.

She didn’t want to die suffocating on her saliva. And I had. When I moved to Oregon and learned that it was legal and had my first patient request this, I had said, no, I can’t do this. Like, I took an oath to do no harm. And I really couldn’t. I couldn’t reconcile it. But there was a movie called how to Die in Oregon that came out that changed my mind, that I said, okay, well, you know, maybe this is a humane thing to do. And so then I just made myself available that if any of my patients wanted to pursue this and they met criteria that I would do it, and not only would I prescribe that, but I said that if they wanted me there with them at the bedside, I would be there with them.

So in 2019, I helped a patient transition. And it was beautiful. Means gave them Metis drugs. Yeah, I didn’t administer it. They have to take it themselves, But I had prescribed it. And then she ended up taking it. And it was actually like a. Just the most beautiful spiritual experience. Her daughter, myself, and her and but when I left her house, I had this knowing that when I leave this life, I’m leaving alone and I’m going to have to answer to myself that I lived my life in a way that was aligned with what I knew to be true.

And I knew that had something to do with my husband. You said you knew you were leaving alone, yet this person had other people with her. Right. But when you leave this body, your soul, when you leave this. Yeah. Vehicle that we have, that we then encounter our wholeness and we are accountable for how we lived our lives. That’s what I mean in terms of we leave alone. Like, no one’s coming with me. And I can’t point to my husband and say, well, I stayed in radiation oncology because he wanted me to. It was that kind of thing.

So that happened in 2019. That just started me thinking like, oh, I have to really grapple with this. And then in 2020, I ended up having an experience called a shared death experience. And this is like a near death experience, but different in that the person who has it doesn’t transition. They. It’s usually healthcare professionals or emergency personnel who are at the scene where someone dies. Someone else there has a metaphysical experience of experiencing the light and the love and all of that. And so that happened to me in the fall of 2020. And like a near death experience, it totally fundamentally shifted things for me.

And all of a sudden I could see what we were doing in Western medicine was wrong. Like, this is not correct. This is not the way that you heal cancer. And so after that event, I was like, I have to leave. But I also know that that means that it’s going to cause me a divorce. It’s going to, you know, I’m going to have to do this on my own, you know, and it’s, it’s, it was, it was a big deal. So I basically, it took me. And up until then, you kept. From the time of this, this other experience until then, you kept being a radiation oncologist.

Yeah, so I. Yeah. And even in 2020, I was still practicing. And actually that shared death experience happened one week after I had finished interviewing for the National Medical Director position. For. I had been nominated for that position for the, you know, all of the United States. And I knew that I. It came down to me and one other woman and I didn’t get it. And I was like, I know I’m meant to build something, but I know it’s not within the system. Like, I knew that as soon as that happened. And then the next week, I had the shared death experience.

And so basically, then it took me a year about how, like, what you saw, heard, felt, or what. I don’t know what. Yeah. Experience was that said, this is not the way we’re supposed to do medicine. Sure. So what happened was that I was meditating again. Again. So I was. It was my practice to meditate, but I. And maybe I’ll just tell you the full story. I don’t always tell this full story because it’s a little weird. And I think that sometimes people aren’t. But I know that you can hang with the weirdness. So what happened was that I had a woman that I knew from, like, she was a trauma therapist and also a had, you know, traditional therapist.

And I had seen her for trauma therapy just because I had trauma from my childhood. And then she had moved into doing more, like, drumming ceremonies and kind of shamanic work. And she called me. This was like, around that time when I. That week that I had, or I guess around the time when I was finishing the interviewing for that job and a week before, I had the shared death experience. And she said to me, she said, this is going to be the weirdest phone call. And it’s very uncomfortable because she said, you’re a doctor and I’m a therapist, and I would never do this.

But she said, I have to stop the messages. She says, the messages just will not stop coming. And she said, spirit is telling. And I didn’t know, like, spirit. I’m like, all of this was totally foreign to me. And she said, spirit has told me over and over and over, you have very big power, and I have to help you. And I was like, who’s spirit? And like, what does that mean? What are you talking about? She’s like, I don’t know. And I said, well, what do you think we should do? And she said, well, maybe we should do a drumming ceremony.

So the day of my shared death experience that afternoon, I had gone to this woman’s house and she had done this drumming. And basically it was just, you know, frequency, like, elevating my frequency through this drumming. And she had had me gather some things from her studio to put on the altar before we did the drumming. And one of the things that I had picked to put on the altar was this giant apophyte stone. It was literally. I could barely hold it. It was probably like £50. And so we had done the drumming ceremony. And then she said, the stone wants to go with you.

And I was like, with me where? I Was like this giant stone. She’s like, yeah, the stone wants to go with you. And I was like, what? So I was like, okay. So I’m like, if you’ll help me get into the car, I’ll take this thing home. But it was a giant stone. And so I take the stone home. And that night, I normally meditated in the morning, but the stone was calling to me, and it was like, come put your hands on me. So, like. Okay, did you hear it or. Yes, I heard it. And even though I haven’t been, like, open spiritually, like, I was always seeking, so I’m always.

And I’m always game. I’m always like, like, this is the whole fear thing. I’m like. I’m like, okay, I’m. I’m just going to go check it out, see what’s going on. So the stone was calling to me, so I went down and I put my hands on it, and I started just meditating. And basically, I was just, like, breathing and clearing my mind. And immediately when I started meditating, a woman’s voice started talking to me. And what she said was, I can’t let go, but it’s not because of me. It’s because of them. And instinctively, I knew she was dying, and I knew she was talking about her family or friends.

And so then I just started talking to her and in my mind and basically said to her, there’s no rush. You’ll know when it’s time, and I’ll stay with you. And I kind of just stayed with her as if it was someone who was in my physical presence. And at some point in the meditation, I saw that this woman was this a woman named Misty. And I had never met Misty, but I had been helping Misty’s best friend care for her as she was dying of breast cancer. Because her best friend was one of my colleagues at work.

She was an administrator within cancer care. And I had been helping her make sure Misty’s wishes were honored and that she could stay home and that she. And also helping her cope with the loss of a good friend. And they were both in their early 30s, so just helping. Coaching my friend through that. And so I saw that this was Misty, and then I just stayed with her. And basically, at some point in the meditation, I started to feel something pulling away from her body, which now I would describe as her soul. And I started to hear pops, like, pop, pop, pop, pop.

And then all of a sudden, it was like a whoosh of air opened up, and she gasped and said, oh, my gosh I never had to worry. It’s so beautiful. And as soon as she said that, she was gone. And I was just engulfed in, like, the sun. That’s the best way I can describe it. It was just, like, in. Just complete love and light, like, ineffable. You can’t explain what that feels like. And so I was in that space for. Hard to know because, like, time just doesn’t exist. But I was there for some period of time, and then I came out of it and I was like, what just happened? Like, what was that? I didn’t do any drugs in that drumming ceremony.

I didn’t. I hadn’t taken any drugs. And I didn’t tell my husband when I went to sleep because I was like, he’s going to think I’m crazy. And so I went to sleep. And the next morning, I woke up to a text from my colleague with a picture of Misty saying, thank you for all of your help with Misty. She died last night. I was like, no, shit? She didn’t know. She. Yeah, she didn’t know it. She didn’t know anything. And I was like, I don’t know if I tell her, because I didn’t want to upset her, you know, at the moment, I didn’t know what to do with that.

And so I said, you know, you’re welcome. I’m sorry for your loss. And I said, I know this is a weird question, but what time did Misty die? And sure enough, she died within minutes of the time that I had been in meditation with her. And so that woman was with her. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And so eventually I told her, and actually, it was comforting for the family and my friend, and they said that they, you know, Misty had been resisting. So she. I forget whether she was late 20s or early 30s, but very young, young, and she had really been resisting.

And they were like. They knew she was ready, but she didn’t want to go. And for, like, five days. And what they described was that on Sunday night or whatever night this was, I can’t remember that night, all of a sudden, she just relaxed. And they had all surmised that someone from the other side, like maybe a family member or friend who had already passed, had come and helped her. And so when they heard this story, they’re like, oh, that’s so helpful to know, because we saw that she was struggling, struggling, struggling, struggling. And then all of a sudden, just became totally peaceful.

And, you know, it happened very quickly. So. And I know now that that happened as confirmation for me to confirm that that did really happen, because I think otherwise I would have been like, I don’t know what that experience was, you know. But after that, I started to really change. And the best way that I can describe it. No. Okay, so the rock went back to the woman. So that was the rock’s purpose, I guess. So I gave the rock back to the woman. Really? You decided or did the rock tell you? I think I said to her, you know, whenever you feel like the rock’s supposed to come back because it’s like this, I mean, probably thousands of dollars for this beautiful apophyllite, you know, and it was hers and she had loaned it to me, so I didn’t even think about, you know.

But what’s interesting that you bring this up is I had just recently, and also there’s an energetic component to my work which you and I have not talked about before. But I now have an apophilite stone of my own that’s big, that, that I’m. That I’m using. Got it. So. But anyway, so what happened with that was that I just started to change and I started to see things more clearly. And I could start to see, like, oh, this system is really broken. But I can’t say that I saw it in that event. It was more like something changed me.

And the best way that I’ve been able to wrap my head around it from a logical perspective, which I think this is not logical and reason doesn’t apply here, but is through David Hawkins work. And he talks about with near death experiences, when people cross over outside the veil, that they’re bathed with these very high frequencies and that it fundamentally shifts them. And that for me, I feel like, is what happened. And I almost feel like I’m an antenna. And my antenna was tuned by that event. And so now when I used to just read voraciously, like I could read, you know, I’d read at least 80 books a year and just consuming, consuming information.

And now I like, tune. And if something catches my attention and resonates, then I’ll dive in and read something. And actually that’s how I came across your work is that I saw a lecture, I think it was from the Wise Traditions Conference about like, what makes us sick and what doesn’t make us sick. And my antenna just was like, you know, oh, this is resonant. And then I just started diving into reading your work and reading your books. But so that’s when I say that it. It showed me things. It wasn’t like it showed me a picture, it was Just like, it fundamentally shifted something for me where I could no longer ignore these signs.

And so basically then I knew I had to leave, but I also knew that that was going to dismantle my life, you know, and so I basically had to walk through that. And ultimately, I resigned or left my job in radiation oncology in the summer of 22. That was, like, how long after that experience? That was a year and a half, because basically it happened in the fall of 2020. And then in December of 2021 is when I finally had the courage to tell my husband that. I was like, I can’t. I know that you don’t understand this and you’re not going to be along for this ride, but I have to leave.

And one of the big sticking points with that was he was like, well, if you knew what you were going to do and you just jump into administration or another job, it’s fine if you don’t want to be a radiation oncologist. But what I said to him is I was like, I don’t trust anything. I’m like, I’m not going into any training. I’m not jumping into administrative. I need to leave the system so that I can figure out what’s right and what’s wrong and what is going on. And that’s what he couldn’t sign up for. It’s in.

I mean, it’s inter. We could. Yeah, I don’t know if that’s worth exploring. It’s like, because it seems obvious that you couldn’t just. If, given what you experienced, that you couldn’t just go, well, now I’ll just be an administrator. Right. I mean. But anyways, that’s okay. Yeah. Which is why ultimately, I think that relationship had to end. He wasn’t. You know, I couldn’t be doing the things that I’m doing now if I was still married to him. So that needed to happen. Got it. Got it. All right, so then you quit, and so then what happens? So I quit in the summer of 2022.

And, I mean, it’s funny. I’m like, do I go all in with you, Tom? Yeah, let’s just do it. We’re this public, although we. We don’t have to. Public. We don’t have to. Yeah. Well, I’m just gonna be totally transparent, and I don’t share all of these things in every space because I don’t feel like every audience can handle them, but. Handle it. But what I realized in retrospect was what had happened when my shared death experience was that I had come into a coaching program for someone and unbeknownst to me, the energy of that coaching program was being held by a very powerful shaman.

And basically the car. I’m just going to give the short story of this, but the Carlos Castaneda books about Don Juan are very popular, right people now I think you remember that, but maybe younger people don’t remember those books. But the books were about Don Juan, you know, Yaqui Indian shaman, but really a sorcerer, like a very powerful. And the whole concept of the books was that Carlos had apprenticed with this sorcerer and Carlos never apprenticed with that sorcerer. Those stories were actually of a 13 year old boy, which makes more sense. This is kind of how shamans are trained.

It was a 13 year old boy who had ingested all those plant medicines and done all that work with Don Juan and he sold his story to Carlos because his father had died and he had to support his family. And Carlos said, nobody’s going to believe that a 13 year old boy ingest all these plant medicines. So I’m just going to make myself the apprentice. And the boy was like, well, I don’t care, you know, he got approved, he got permission from Don Juan to sell these stories and so that he could support his family because his dad had died.

He was putting his brother through medical school because his dad’s dream was his brother to become a doctor. So he was putting his brother through medical school and supporting his mom and sister at age 14. So he sold these stories to Carlos and then as we know, those became very, very popular. Carlos made millions and millions of dollars. And actually anyway, that is just as an aside. I had a big influence on my life and in fact I’ve actually given talks about it and now I’m realizing I probably knew nothing about it. But okay, so. And we, I hope that’s fine.

Yeah, I mean that’s, that’s fine. Yeah, but so, and actually this may make sense to you is people started to question at some point because car, the first four books were real apprenticing with Don Juan. Right. Carlos wrote the rest of them on his own and they became a little bit distorted and so. And then Carlos became kind of distorted and people started questioning like was Don Juan even real and did this happen? And anyway, that young boy is now a 70 year old man and he is as powerful, probably more powerful than Don Juan. And I had come into his frequency through this coaching program and because I’m so sensitive, I had just opened from that and that’s how my spiritual gift Started opening and ultimately I ended up, you know, connecting with this person.

And now mentor and probably would call. I’m an apprentice to this very identify you or you had just were part of the program. Okay, well, let’s. I’ll just. So the program. What started to happen was I started to remember things. Like I. I started to be like, I’m here for a reason. And I don’t know. I didn’t know what it was, but I could just sense. And I started getting these messages and then also gifts started opening up. Like I could. I can actually help people transition when they’re dying. And I can sense emotional trauma in the body that’s causing illness in the body.

And these were just things that started to open for me. And because I was in this group, you could get on his list to actually do a call with him. The way that he works with people and now doesn’t actually his list is all closed, but at the time it was open, you could get on a wait list. And then the way that he works is you do a phone call where he connects to your, you know, basically based on your time of birth, location of birth. And yeah, I think that’s basically, you know, identifying you in the quantum field.

And then he channels basically what comes through and you have a call and then you do candle work with him, which is basically healing your light body through the elements, through water, through fire, through different earth elements. And so In December of 20, basically, I had gotten on his list, and that list was like four years at the time. And so I was on his wait list. But then I happened to be with some girlfriends from that coaching program that actually had already had their call with him and are working with him. And his wife was going to come have dinner with them.

And I didn’t know that this was not normal. These are not public people. These are people, people who, you know, work in the background. And so she came to have dinner with us, and when she sat down and she started talking, I felt a male energy coming through her eyes. And a jaguar, like, it’s almost hard to say. Like it was like a jaguar, a male jaguar coming through her eyes. And immediately I felt the love of God, like what I had felt when I had gone, you know, on my shared death experience outside the veil.

And then also I had already helped a couple of patients with that. And so I knew what that felt like. And she was explaining that he came in complete. This is like a different being. This is, you know, we come in and we forget who we are, but this. This is someone who comes in remembering who they are. And so, you know, she talked and, you know, we went through the whole night. And then I said to her at the end, I said, okay, your husband is not like us. Like, he holds the frequency of God.

And I know that just because I had crossed outside the veil. And so then she said, you’re correct, and she said, your call is going to be in a couple months. So all of a sudden I was moved up the list and had my call. And usually people, you know, he’s probably worked with thousands and thousands of people just like, healing through the elements with the candles and stuff. And there are very few people on the planet who ever met him. But then I ended up meeting him, and basically I work with him, and he also guides my practice and helps me energetically in the healing for my clients.

And I never expected that or, you know, but it, you know, it’s programmed. Right. Like, we come in and everything is programmed on a spiritual level. And, you know, he’s explained that to me. There’s a reason why you have an md. There’s a reason why we’ve come back together. And so. And I didn’t expect to share all of this with you, and I’m okay with it actually being out there because I think at some point I’m going to have to say what’s really going on. But. So, yeah. Is there a choice in the program? Like, well, the program.

So the program was just, like, I was just in a coaching program that was three months and then I was done. No, I mean, the big program. Oh, yes. Absolutely. Free choice. So I could have been like, you’re crazy. I’m out of here. Yeah. So absolutely no. And actually to choose into it. This is a very challenging path because he teaches through allegory and it’s all coded. And so a lot of people choose out, you know, who are walking this path because it’s freaking hard. I had to give up everything. Right. Like, you know, and then.

So what ended up happening is when I left my job in 2022, I thought that I would be able to then take a couple months off. And then. Before you left your job, what’s that you did this session happened, this meeting before you left your job? Yeah. So I made the decision to leave in December of 2021, and that was the same month that I had my call with him. So I had not met him, but I had my call. And immediately after I had my call and started working with him through the elements my whole life.

Blew up. And my husband was like, forcing me to get the vaccine, and I was like, I’m not doing it. And so it just blew up my marriage. Like, all of a sudden, everything blew up. Like, I had told him I was making the decision to leave. But then it just all of a sud. Things kind of exponentially started to unravel. So that was. I started doing candle ceremonies in December and then met him for the first time in March. I left, you know, left my job in July. And then. And then really started seeing him more regularly and spending time with Ximena, having physical contact, you know, after I left.

But what he explained was that you need time to heal. Like, you can’t give people what you don’t have. And so you need to do your own internal work and healing before you can go out in the world and help other people. And so I spent from, you know, the summer of 2022 until October of 2023 really doing my own internal work and healing and working with him, and then launched my practice in. Not even a year ago now. So October of 2023. And just what. What describe this practice? Like, what do you mean by a practice? Yeah, so my practice, you know, I work with people on a 3D level, helping them detoxify their body and nourish themselves physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, and helping them strip away the conditioning to get aligned.

But then also, energetically, he is working with my. Not everyone. So I do consults. But then people who end up working with me on an ongoing basis end up working with him through the elements as well. And so there’s this energetic component. And then I’m facilitating the things that they need to do to get themselves cleared out, you know, on a, like, more physical level. And what kind of people come to this? Are these, like, sick people? Cancer patients? Cancer. Only cancer patients. I, you know, I’m open to seeing people who don’t have cancer or are, you know, wanting to heal from other things, but my practice has been primarily about cancer.

And this is. It’s an online thing or do you see people in person? Yeah. So my work is all virtual. All virtual. Wow. I think I stumped you. I’m, like, surprised you. Well, yeah, but let me. I’m going to keep going here. I’m going to plug along. So given that, what do you think cancer is? I think that we are overloaded with toxins and that we’re not nourishing ourselves in the way that we’re meant to. We’re disconnected from nature. We’re you know, getting interference from EMFs and blue light. All the things that you say really feel like cancer is an imbalance of healthy functioning of the body.

You know, we’re basically not getting the nourishment that we need to, like, make ourselves healthy. And then we’ve got all of these toxins. And basically this is an imbalance. And that’s what I work with with my clients. My whole practice is about helping them detoxify and then nourish themselves with good, healthy foods, similar to what you recommend with Weston A. Price. And, you know, getting the connection with others and connecting with earth and sun and all of the things that our bodies need. That if we have that, you know, cancer, we all have had cancer cells.

I mean, this is a question for. I mean, you and I, we’ve had conversations about this. What is cancer? I really think that it is toxicity. I don’t know if it’s the packaging of the toxins or if it’s because the cells get so. And I know I’m like using the word cell, but I’m just going to say it because I’m not sure yet. But, you know, whether you have this switch into fermentation because the cells are so toxified and the mitochondria aren’t working. I really think that. That it’s all about the mitochondria for cancer. But. Yeah.

And what are the mitochondria do? Well, I think that this is, you know, and actually the reason why I came across you. I want to come back to that, and then I can answer this question. But the reason why I came upon your work is that I was, you know, listening to that lecture. And then I saw that you had a book, Human Heart, Cosmic Heart. And when I saw that book, I said, that probably is an answer for my boyfriend. And I started reading that book because he had heart failure. He was a professional athlete and basically was winning professional races at age 50 and diagnosed with heart failure because his PCP had ordered an EKG and he sent him for an echo and basically had an EF of 15%, which, for your listeners who don’t know that, an EF of 15% means you can’t walk to the front door, let alone the mailbox.

So winning a professional cycling race at age 50 is just bonkers. And so I was trying to find answers about that. And when you started talking about the water, my mentor, he’s been talking to me about water, water, water, water, water, water for like a year. And I was like, are you talking about water? They drink. Or it was like, but it’s all in coded, right? And so unless my frequency was at a place where I could actually catch what he was saying, I could not get it. And when I started reading your books, I was like, oh, my God, this is it.

I was like, I finally figured out what he’s been talking about with water. And so I think the mitochondria are responsible for structuring the water in our cells, and this is the problem. So you actually are tied in with this whole thing. And it’s not an accident that I came across you and that we’ve connected. And it’s also not an accident that you had given lectures about Don Juan and all of that. So I don’t know what that means, but this is just kind of the way my life is unfolding at this point, which is magical and also quite bonkers.

Okay. Before we get into how people can find you and maybe work with you, I. I’m gonna. I’m gonna say one story that I heard, and then I. I’m gonna try to see if I can find this article that could. I’d be fascinated to hear what you think. So it was a. It was an. An anthroposophical doctor in Europe, I’m not sure where, I think Germany, but it may been not Germany. And he claimed he. His thing was he could see that what they call in anthroposophy, the etheric body or the water body or the life body.

And he also had a strong interest in the dying process and helping people through the dying process. And he. He said that he could see. So in. In anthroposophy, they say that death means that this life body separates from the physical body, and then the physical body is just dust, you know, or it’s just. He does what minerals and the earth elements do. So he could see this happen, and he could see this similar to what you were describing. He then only once had an occasion of a. And it sounded like a woman who was horribly suffering, just the worst you could imagine, like rectal cancer or vaginal cancer that had eaten through the recto vaginal wall.

And, you know, the stool was coming out through vagina and horrible pain. And the woman had begged her to help her, you know, do the transition. And he didn’t want to, but he did. And what he saw was a fragmentation of this etheric body as it left. And so instead of coming out in. I don’t even know the words, like one piece, it came out like. Like, it was like it had Been disintegrated or broken into hundreds or 20 or I don’t know how many pieces. And it. It had an incredible difficult time coming back together.

And he said he’s never going to do that again. Set. And. And are you. I guess my question is. Is the question related to. Because he helped her transition that. The way that. That. That the. The body. That the light body was somehow affected by that choice of the end. Is that the question or what is the question? I don’t know. There’s just a. I. Yeah, I happened to. That I was very much affected by that story because, you know, and I don’t know if it’s true. I don’t know the guy. So I don’t know if he really Seeing what he says he’s seeing.

Anyways, that was. That was the end of any interest I ever would have had, which I never really did in assisted suicide, because if that’s really what happens, well. Well, what’s interesting is that I did not have that. So I did see the light leave my client patient that I helped in 2019. I didn’t realize I had that gift. Now I, you know, I’m saying in retrospect now I know what I saw, but. But hers was like, all together and. Yeah. And so. But I do know that the light body can be defragmented from trauma and all these things.

And part of the integration when someone releases this body is that they need to reintegrate with their wholeness. And that can take time, depending on. And that’s why in this lifetime, it’s so important to come to peace and, you know, be truthful about what you know is your truth, because then you can have peace when you leave, because you really do. It can be fragmented from living in this reality. We can get all messed up from it, and it takes time to reintegrate. My take on what you just said then is he saw something that was a real experience, but for that person, and it’s.

He generalized it. So that’s always what happens. And that’s probably not. Was not a valid generalization, but it did happen with that one person. All right, so we’re out of time. I have only one final thing to say, but tell people how they can contact you or if they want to work with you or hear more about what you’re doing or any of that stuff. Sure. So my website is katiedemming.com and I have a podcast called Born to Heal where I bring on guests to share the things that I wish I had been taught in medical school so that my listeners can learn along with me about true healing.

Got it. And that’s where they would sign up, like to do a consultation or something. Yeah, you can find that on my website. You know, I. I occasionally run across a person who I. Who I’m going to say. What I’m going to say about my impression right now is, so I’ve spent my life thinking about these things, but not experiencing them. Them. And in a way, wishing that I had experienced them. Maybe I do in some way that I’m not appreciating. And it’s incredibly powerful to hear the story of somebody, in this case you, who actually has done more than thinking about it, but actually has experienced the water and the.

And how the soul works. And it’s. It’s. It’s great. I just. It’s. Yeah, it’s. It’s a gift that you’re willing to share that with people, which is inspiring and gives people a new way of being in the world. And it’s. It’s, I think, really the essence of courage to do that, because it’s not easy because people can say all kinds of stuff. Anyways, that’s. That’s what I got out of this. So thank you for sharing all this. Thank you, Tom. Amazing to hear. And I look forward to a lot of further collaboration. I love it. Well, thank you for being open.

And actually, it feels good to share this more openly because it. It is weird. Right. So I think that’s why I haven’t shared it is just because I don’t think a lot of people can understand it. And so thank you. I have a saying now. If it isn’t weird, it’s probably wrong. I love that because all the things I think are actually accurate are weird. So if it’s not weird, it’s probably wrong. Perfect. Then I’m in the right place. You’re in the right place. All right, Katie Deming. Thanks, everybody. And I’m actually looking forward to the comments.

I always get comments on these things. Things. And we will be in touch. Sounds great. Thank you.
[tr:tra].

See more of DrTomCowan on their Public Channel and the MPN DrTomCowan channel.