Let's let's let's circle back saki here ourselves with with Mike Johnson's speakership. So obviously, talk of the rise of Christian nationalism is once again front and center. So your latest book, Mere Christendom, devotes over 250 pages to the subject. What would you say to a conservative Christian out there? Because this is sort of how we started off the conversation. What would you say to a conservative Christian? He believes in the Bible, believes in Nicene Creed, all this sort of stuff, but nevertheless wants to keep Christianity out of politics and keep the public square neutral when it comes to religion, right? I would ask him, so when you want to banish Christianity from the public square, how far do you want it to go? Right? Do you want Christianity to step across the line? But look at you warningly if you start to misbehave or do you want Christianity to go away entirely? Okay, if you want it to go away entirely, then you want civilizational paganism, right? You want the Gladiatorial games. 

You want children thrown into the lap of moloch. You want abortion. Basically, you choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, right? It's either life or death, as Deuteronomy 30 says. And there's the way of life and there's the way of death. There's a culture of life and there's the culture of death. Now, what these well meaning Christians somehow believe is that I can have cultural neutrality and everybody still behaves okay, right? Everybody sort of behaves on an autopilot thing. 

But the thing I compare it to is the prodigal son didn't run out of his father's money the first weekend away from home. He could party for a while. And when the Enlightenment a lot of this goes back to the Enlightenment, but then there were stages, and I'm simplifying things. But our secular elites, when they ran away from home and they said, we can govern ourselves without reverence to God or Christ, what they were doing is they were taking the father's inheritance and they were running away with it. 

And ten years after they ran away with the father's inheritance, the sky was still blue and the grass was still green. There wasn't disaster yet. And everybody at the tavern still liked the prodigal son because he still had money. The girls still thought he was cute because he had money. But a time came. As Margaret Thatcher famously said, the problem with socialism is sooner or later you run out of other people's money. 

Other people's money. The prodigal son ran out of money. That's where we are now. Yeah. So there was a time when I was a kid where you could watch Leave It to Beaver and say, oh, things are basically right. Side know, there's a moral universe. Good is good and bad is bad, and there's a moral lesson at the end of this. There's another sitcom, Father Knows Best, and you've got all these everything's right side up. 

Well, the great Athanasius famously took his stand contra mundum against the world. We're having to take our stand contra nugosum mundum against clown world. We have gotten to the point where everything is just demented and crazy. All right, it's demented and crazy, and it's because we have no moral capital. We ran out of money, and we have to understand that the reason things were right side up for so long was because of Christendom. 

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It's a win win. Don't wait. Click on that link below or go to forward slash turley. Right now, there was an enormous amount of moral capital that was accumulated in Western civilization as a result of our shared confession of Christ, right? And what we've done is we have started to spend it like drunken sailors, and then we're astonished when it looks like we might run out. How could this possibly happen? Now, the good news is that the prodigal son came to his senses that's a possible outcome. 

Are Americans sitting there staring at the pig food, wondering, how did we get to this place? It didn't used to be this way 20 years ago, right? How did we get here? Who led us here? Whose idea was this? And that's where I'm seeing the signs of restiveness, and I just want to cheer it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. We've depleted our borrowed capital, right? We've castrated in our biding the gelding be fruitful, as C. 

S. Lewis would put it, and it's just impossible. I mean, for me, one of the most fascinating developments is even in the area of biblical scholarship, particularly rather liberal biblical scholarship that you'll get like at the Society of Biblical Literature, where what's so fascinating is even they're recognizing how political the Apostle Paul's letters actually are. Right. I'm thinking of Ed T. Wright's work and Paul's Counter Imperial Theology. 

But the point being that that conservative Christian that wants a neutral public square, even if he were to run to liberal Christianity to help him, he's not going to escape the radically political entailments of the gospel. Even they're recognizing that Paul saw the declaration of Christ's redemptive lordship as having dramatic political ramifications as well. If Jesus is lord, then Caesar isn't. Exactly. Just lastly, between Roe being overturned, which was amazing, affirmative action being overturned, the return of Christendom in many parts of America and Europe, that's happening in this renewal. 

Classical education, all that good, mean. What's your prognosis on the fight against secularism today and in the future? For example, it does seem the pro life movement's been experiencing some setbacks, like we just saw with Ohio. Yeah. But ironically, demographers like Eric Kaufman over at the University of London are arguing that conservative Christians are outbreeding secular liberals like never before with a possibility of hitting a majority in 2030. 

That's some of Kaufman's demographic statistics. So how do you see this playing out? Yeah, I just compared it in a blog post. I wrote the overturning of Roe was the Battle of Jericho, where Jericho fell down flat, and the Ohio referendum was the first Battle of AI, where we went up and the Israelites were defeated. And Joshua was dismayed, flat on his face before the Lord. And the Lord appears to him and says, what are you doing there? What are you doing lying there? Get off. 

There's more to go. We've got to deal with sin in the camp, which they did with Aiken, and then they returned to the Battle of AI. We knew when Roe went down, it moved it from one national battle to 50 isolated battles. And in those 50 isolated battles, we already knew that we didn't have California or Massachusetts or Illinois. Right. The reason Ohio was a gut punch is that we should have been able to take that just like the Israelites should have been able to take AI. 

Right? So the message is don't be complacent. We're in a long war. Trust in God. Read his word. Worship faithfully with your family. Christopher Dawson, a great historian, once said that the Christian church lives in the light of eternity and can afford to be patient. Yeah, that's beautiful. And that's because we serve a transcendental God. Right. Our God is not caught up in current events. God never has a bad news day. 

Right. I love your folks. He turns and Phrases they are artistic beyond know one thing. What I think of you, Doug, is when I look back at these guys like Joel Cotkin who talk about this refutilization that we're facing today, I can't help but reflect on how the original feudalization was shattered by the Protestant Reformation, which was in many ways a kind of populist revolt, sacred, for lack of better terms. 

Sort of like a sacred populism, as it were. And it looks like we're seeing a comparable revolt happening right now, being led in no small part from the chimney in Idaho. So I got to tell you, that's what gives me heart, I got to tell you that the danger sign will be when I paint myself hold. Doug, what's the best way our viewers could keep up with your amazing work and also so many of the events that you sponsor and that you're part of during the year. 

So if you go to my basically set it up so that if you go to my blog, which is Blog and Mayblog and the address is Dougwills. com, we set it up so that on the front page, there's a portal to pretty much everything I'm involved with. New St. Andrews College, Logos School, ACCS, all the different places are on the front page of my blog. Awesome. Dougwils Wils. 

com blog and magblog. Absolutely. It's a must read, gang. You're going to love it. It's just chock full of stuff. And yes, again, you'll see where the prolific writing comes from. It's a blog virtually every day, a few entries every day. It comes from the voices in my head. I tell people I write to make the voices in my head go away, and it's not working. It's not working. 

Make them go away. Make them go away. That's right. Well, I'm glad they keep coming. Gag. Make sure you click on the link below. Also get mere christendom. It is an amazing read. Get a bunch of copies. Make your Christmas shopping early here. What a good idea. Yeah, that's right. And it is. It's wonderful. And it's going to be an amazing conversation piece as well in the coming months ahead, especially with the rise of Christian nationalism, not just here, but throughout Europe as well. 

Make sure to subscribe to Doug's social media, his website. There's always new events happening throughout the country that Doug's on the front lines with, and you'll definitely want to participate in those as well. Doug, once again, thank you so much for giving us some of your time. It's always such an honor to have you here. Well, it's happy to do it. God bless your work. God bless you, too, my France. 

Thank you. .